Author Topic: Tuning numbers (Read 8775 times)

DeepBlueGXP · « **on:** July 18, 2009, 09:01:17 AM »

on the SF http://www.solsticeforum.com/forum/f59/how-many-hp-can-i-add-my-gxp-how-57702/index2.html#post872124

GMR posted a dyno where the smoothing was a ZERO. In this day where people buy a tune for the HP ratings (bragging rights), that is false advertising.

If I were to post my Dyno based on a ZERO, I would have a HP rating close to 300.

Perhaps PHOENIXGXP would like to respond here?

spicy3480 · « **Reply #1 on:** July 18, 2009, 09:30:10 AM »

Ha I knew this was coming...posting those graphs with a smoothing of 0 was a bit sneaky...but there are too many intelligent people on here that picked that up in a second.

MomsSol · « **Reply #2 on:** July 18, 2009, 09:56:31 AM »

Just another tidbit - those statements about the ECM being different on the GXPs for (IIRC) '07 vs '08 .... pure fiction according to several sources at Pontiac/GM.

shabby · « **Reply #3 on:** July 18, 2009, 10:39:17 AM »

You guys are looking for a hole in the wall here, its not like martins tuner doesn't know how to tune the lnf, he has lots of followers on the cobalt forum and puts out impressive numbers. Tuning the lnf doesn't require any skill, anyone can do it, its just that simple with hptuners.
And yes the 07 gxp ecm is different than the 08-09 ecm.

Chemist · « **Reply #4 on:** July 18, 2009, 10:45:56 AM »

Pardon my ignorance of dynamometers, but what does a "smoothing of 0" mean?

Feel free to start slow and then get technical.

shabby · « **Reply #5 on:** July 18, 2009, 10:51:30 AM »

With no smoothing you have a zig-zag dyno line, it looks very erratic. With smoothing set at its highest you have a very smooth averaged line.

snaponbob · « **Reply #6 on:** July 18, 2009, 12:08:43 PM »

Quote from: MomsSol on July 18, 2009, 09:56:31 AM

Just another tidbit - those statements about the ECM being different on the GXPs for (IIRC) '07 vs '08 .... pure fiction according to several sources at Pontiac/GM.

Lyndon would not agree with that assessment. The PART NUMBERS may be the same, but the software is different.

tazz · « **Reply #7 on:** July 18, 2009, 08:09:54 PM »

Are the Bosch ECM's different types or just the OS software that manages them?

BSRL · « **Reply #8 on:** July 19, 2009, 01:32:12 AM »

Quote from: shabby on July 18, 2009, 10:39:17 AM

You guys are looking for a hole in the wall here, its not like martins tuner doesn't know how to tune the lnf, he has lots of followers on the cobalt forum and puts out impressive numbers. Tuning the lnf doesn't require any skill, anyone can do it, its just that simple with hptuners.
And yes the 07 gxp ecm is different than the 08-09 ecm.

Well, I had my car tuned by them personally as others here are aware. He tuned me for about 45 minutes and got me 11 whp above my baseline and I was not satisfied. I had John & Randy tune me later the same day and they got me an additional 21whp on top of what they did. So based on that experience and watching the gains they got on other people's cars that day, I was not impressed at all. Do they tune well? I would say there are definetely better tuners out there.

So as far as the tuning I was less than satisfied but later settled up with me to my satisfaction.

My dyno that day read 299whp with a smoothing of 5 and with a smoothing of zero it was only 1whp higher at 300 so in my case it didn't make much difference but yes the graph was a little smoother with a smoothing of 5.

snaponbob · « **Reply #9 on:** July 19, 2009, 08:24:10 AM »

Quote from: tazz on July 18, 2009, 08:09:54 PM

Are the Bosch ECM's different types or just the OS software that manages them?

The OS's.

DeepBlueGXP · « **Reply #10 on:** July 19, 2009, 09:35:06 AM »

ok, so you proved your point about the difference of smoothing 0 to 5 isn't much. But Martin posted a correction factor of STD vice SAE which is huge.

Try this for yourself.
I'm attaching my last dyno files [ Guests cannot view attachments ] [ Guests cannot view attachments ] and a http://www.dynojet.com/downloads/zip/WinPEP752Install.zip plus 3 graph exports.

First: Martin's dyno post STD Smoothing ZERO 287.64 HP

My dyno using the same factors as Martin's post 294.57 HP
[ Guests cannot view attachments ]

SAE Correction Smoothing ZERO 287.55 HP
[ Guests cannot view attachments ]

SAE Smoothing FIVE 285.80 HP
[ Guests cannot view attachments ]

lil goat · « **Reply #11 on:** July 19, 2009, 01:36:14 PM »

Don't forget Joe, I saw you pull a 280 on a Dyno Dynamics, with a 9% compensation, that should have been more like 11%. If you were on a Dyno Jet. That would put you at 289 on the last one I saw you do, and you did better than that later. You can easily make a dyno read whatever you want by playing with things, some shop inflate there numbers to get more business, that is a fact.The only real value of a dyno sheet is before and after, I saw Joe's car pull a 231 and later a 280 on the same dyno that is a huge gain! He has since improved on that. I would never say tuning with HP Tuners is easy, it's not but a lot of people have had good success, I do question how smooth the tune is and is it fun to drive, that's where the finesse come in. Peak hp numbers mean squat, how does it drive. I have tunes from Lyndon that were faster than the one I have now, but I did like the way they drove through the twisties, I don't drive on the dyno. I tune my bike, a good tuner could not increase my peak HP by much, but I sure like riding the bike a lot more after he tuned it and smoothed things out. I have never driven a car tuned by GMR, I have heard that his tune has a lot of clutch chatter

My sons GTO with the tune that makes the most HP and the quickest 1/4 times is a bear to drive around. A good tune is a compromise. With HP tuners you can have many tunes for different things, just switch as needed. I will soon have an auto X tune, tons of low end and who cares about the top end.

shabby · « **Reply #12 on:** July 19, 2009, 06:34:02 PM »

Quote from: DeepBlueGXP on July 19, 2009, 09:35:06 AM

But Martin posted a correction factor of STD vice SAE which is huge.

I think that's a given, everyone should know that std shows slightly higher numbers than sae. No point in arguing about an extra 2.5% in hp.

LiquidPT · « **Reply #13 on:** July 19, 2009, 07:00:25 PM »

Quote from: shabby on July 19, 2009, 06:34:02 PM

I think that's a given, everyone should know that std shows slightly higher numbers than sae. No point in arguing about an extra 2.5% in hp.

I think you over estimate what the average tune customer knows. I didn't know that, and I like to think I'm more knowledgeable than average. Most people don't understand that dyno #s are next to useless (as Goat said, it's really only useful as a before/after, preferably on the same day with the same operator). They see #s and figure that since you can measure it, the bigger # is better.

Divingsolo (formely Randy@DDM) · « **Reply #14 on:** July 19, 2009, 10:34:45 PM »

Quote from: DeepBlueGXP on July 19, 2009, 09:35:06 AM

ok, so you proved your point about the difference of smoothing 0 to 5 isn't much. But Martin posted a correction factor of STD vice SAE which is huge.

Also notice that both cases presented for the fact that smoothin does not affect readings were AUTO's. the automatic transmission is a GREAT buffer for torque output(the torque converter is whtas doing this) so in essence the readings are already filtered. Manual trannys show large differences in smoothing factors b/c they do not buffer the torque loading

Also, the reason everyone on this board and the BB uses STD is b/c Hahn used it(and race fuel) to make his #'s higher. and since he was here a year before any other vendor doing power mods, we have to play by the rules he established( although all our dynos are done on 93 octane w/ 10% ethanol), just to have "apples to apples"

shabby · « **Reply #15 on:** July 19, 2009, 10:55:28 PM »

Quote from: Randy@DDMWorks on July 19, 2009, 10:34:45 PM

Also notice that both cases presented for the fact that smoothin does not affect readings were AUTO's. the automatic transmission is a GREAT buffer for torque output(the torque converter is whtas doing this) so in essence the readings are already filtered. Manual trannys show large differences in smoothing factors b/c they do not buffer the torque loading.

Ah thats why that dyno line was so smooth, makes sense now.

kennysabarese · « **Reply #16 on:** July 22, 2009, 06:56:53 AM »

tarantula sky was tuned by martin and her horsepower was terrible compared to GMPP tuned cars. her's is auto and we were all manuals for what it's worth...

the car felt faster and the auto shifted better than stock. but the numbers just weren't there.

DeepBlueGXP · « **Reply #17 on:** July 22, 2009, 07:08:15 AM »

Autos produce low numbers on the dynos, HotScott and Chuckdoc's numbers were about 40 lower than manual cars dyno'd on the same day, same dyno. I hear it's because of the torque converter on Autos.

sol_man · « **Reply #18 on:** July 22, 2009, 07:26:15 AM »

Quote from: lil goat on July 19, 2009, 01:36:14 PM

A good tune is a compromise. With HP tuners you can have many tunes for different things, just switch as needed. I will soon have an auto X tune, tons of low end and who cares about the top end.

LG I have to say you are 100% correct. Not only is it a compromise but it’s a matter of convenience and personal preference. I bought the BSR when there weren't any other options available and for me it's great. The car is very quick, good low end power and easy to put back to stock if I ever had to but it's nice to have different options and to see the results other people get with their cars.

Imaj · « **Reply #19 on:** July 22, 2009, 10:59:47 AM »

Joe, what is your torque number?

DeepBlueGXP · « **Reply #20 on:** July 22, 2009, 11:23:52 AM »

332.97 TQ

kennysabarese · « **Reply #21 on:** July 22, 2009, 11:56:59 AM »

Quote from: lil goat on July 19, 2009, 01:36:14 PM

A good tune is a compromise. With HP tuners you can have many tunes for different things, just switch as needed. I will soon have an auto X tune, tons of low end and who cares about the top end.

How do you tune for low end vs high end? What are the differences?

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Author Topic: Tuning numbers (Read 8775 times)

lil goat