Topic: LNF Kappa (Opel GT) with nitrous

[Kelu]

Well, finally decided, after many months studying solutions, results from other LNF/kappa - my next step of power increase will be through nitrous. For the moment I will try use a 50hp wet shot, if everything goes as planned I will test the increase of power on dyno and on the track in this weekend.

If the results of tests are positive the big plan is to upgrade the internals (rods, pistons, gasket, arp head studs and valve springs) and build a complete wet direct port system for next year with all features possible for safety and efficiency (window switch, throttle reader, progressive controller, bottle warmer, fuel pressure safety switch, purge kit, etc) and push over 100hp shot.

Maybe some of you think this is strange, I thought same in the beginning, the idea to have 2 charging systems on a engine is not something which I would vote for, for me if the engine is turbo, develop the turbo system in order for bigger power. But after many months while I was reading tons of info, speaking with local successful tuners and modified cars owners, speaking with experienced guys from US in particular about my case, I have decided that nitrous is best solution for my case.

Some advantages for nitrous system versus other systems:
1) Engine remains completely in same configuration, in the case of a shot of under 100hp, the only changes which are brought to the engine might be the colder spark plugs and maybe retard the timing a bit.
So the car remains same as fun on street as it is until now, because no mods will be made to the engine so the possibility to get into unknown waters like a turbo kit is lower.

2) Best price per power gains and also a nitrous system allows to modify the power increase from 15-500hp with only maximum of hundreds of dollars. Switching from 75 to 100 or 150 or even 200hp gains needs only replacement of some nozzles and maybe changing the position of the fogger.

3) It's a great power adder and a very good balancer, what does  that mean?
Great power adder: it adds same exact power all the time if you have a good kit and supportive features to keep the nitrous and fuel pressure constant. So no spikes or any other "surprises" which can happen far more often in other charging solutions.
Balancer: Even the power is increased, so more pressure in the cylinder, nitrous has one of the greatest cooling effects for the air getting into the engine so it minimizes the knock and combined with a parallel gas tank (filled with race gas or methanol) the system can be almost bulletproof in terms of knock when high numbers are aimed, a small parallel gas tank (with its own fuel pump) which can easily be used because nitrous is a parallel system with the engine.
Normally when power increase there are some aspects which are becoming problematic, mostly when the increase is more than 100hp in our engines:
- pressure increase which can be fixed by retard the timing
- detonations which can be solved by colder and shorter gaps of the spark plugs
- hotter EGT which can be fixed with bigger fuel nozzle so the mix coming from nitrous system makes the AFR a little bit richer without stressing the lnf fuel system when a parallel fuel tank is used.
- knock which can be solved using race gas or methanol instead of the normal fuel in the nitrous system
Basically, theoretically the rule about the juiced engine is that it should perform in almost same conditions with or without nitrous.

Some disadvantages of the nitrous, I don't have problems with them:
1) I have to pay for each fill of the bottle, something like 25-50$ for a 15lbs bottle which in case of a under 100hp shot can hold me 10 runs maybe even more
2) It is advisable to use it only at the strip, that is very fine for me, I gave up on street racing for about a year and actual power on street is enough for me
3) You can ran out of nitrous and that means no more power increase, I plan to have 2 bottles when going to races so I should be covered

The power is in the knowledge like always. So if everything is taking care the system should perform, stock LNF proved that can be reliable on a power increase (up to 450bhp) if the increase of power has no issues. Greaseyjockey did an experiment back in 2008 with a lot less resources that we have now and pushed his stock LNF engine to see how it would hold:

i started with a 75 single nozzle in the cold side charge pipe. worked fine. i then put a purge solenoid to the intercooler and moved to a 100 direct port shot. i popped 4 holes in the intake mani, tapped into the schrader on the fuel line leading to the mechanical pump and sprayed away. then in 50 horse increments, i worked up to a 200 shot. (lemme tell you what, 24lbs of boost and the spray make this thing a monster, i cannot wait till hptuners finishes that thing). now before you people all call me crazy, let me tell you that i was scheduled to go in for surgery in sept and knew i was going to have the winter away from work to play a little while i healed. so i got the monster jets out and figured a 300 shot would probly tell me where the weak point of this motor was. and it did. i'm figuring it took about 600 horse (260 stock, plus mods and boost, and 300 from n2o) before she let loose but heres the result.

Full story: http://www.solsticeforum.com/forum/f63/engine-build-41759/

There is a guy around here too which using a 50hp shot on a LNF kappa for many months without problems as far as I am aware of, petty he is not active, last time when I talked with him he was planing to upgrade for a 75hp shot.

I'm not worried about the engine not holding, I'm sure stock LNF engine can hold safely a 50-75hp shot, I'm more concerned about details like:
- nitrous pressure
- limiting the rpm range when sprayed
- detonations and finding spark plugs to perform good
- nitrous-fuel mix to keep almost same general AFR

I do this with the help of my friend with Opel Speedster who used this systems back in 2007-2008 for many 35-50 shots on stock 200hp engine, he opened the engine to upgrade it and his internals were perfect conditions even his engine is by far weaker and older (Z20LET) than LNF. I have also one of the best electricians around here to do the wiring and also I will have a greek tuner helping me with the tests on his dyno, he owned many highly tuned cars, one being Honda S2000 with turbo and nitrous and he succeed to blew 3 engines, but that happened many years ago (3-7 years) when I'm sure he was lacking many things which we have now.


Installation is almost complete, I use a NX system using a button and I hope tomorrow we will start the tests on dyno, we will have spark plugs on stock and we will start with the smallest shot which we have nozzles, something like 15hp shot and check everything and I will monitor using HP Tuners.
If everything turns out correctly (knock, afr, egt, fuel pressure on the engine, spark plugs checked after each run) we will step to a 35hp shot and re-do all tests and than 50hp shot.

I don't aim power gains in this point, being new territory for me, all I care in this point is to have a properly working system, reliable and perfect functions parameters.

A nice article for those interested in more info about nitrous system:
http://www.chevyhiperformance.com/techarticles/0802ch_nitrous_oxide_systems/index.html

Great details about nitrous and how to make it as good as possible:
http://www.nitrous.info/

[Arabas]

to be honest, i was waiting for you to go with a bigger turbo to get 450hp, not Nitrous, but i suppose nitrous will serve your purpose, coz what u are looking for is really specific.
i know there s aguy somwhere in Greece with Nitrous AND a bigger turbo, but none of us has been able to contact him.
i like the presentation of your project, keep us posted with your results.
i wish i could help you somehow, but my knowledge for such a project is zero....

Best of luck buddy!!!

[SKY888]

kelu, have you communicated with James (greaseyjockey)?   I hope so!  He is a very knowledgeable guy....and will help you with some of his experiences.


good luck bro!

[Kelu]

SKY888: no I didn't even I would love to, I PMed him on sol BB forum some weeks ago but no reply from him

[elff]

Pretty darn cool
For you, I think this is a good solution.  You drive the car without it for all of your normal needs, then when you hit the track, you have that added power to put you on an equal level with other cars.

This sounds like a good setup to maybe have the TriFecta Selecta Tune.
One optimized for Nitrous, one without

[Kelu]

elff: that is a pretty neat idea, even so I will load retarded timing tune when I will hit the track and switch back to the street tune when I will leave it.

There are also electronic devices which can retard the timing without messing with the ECU when spraying as another solution.

[kennysabarese]

Well the thing about flashing the car with HPT right before a race, won't it have to "learn" a bit before having max power?

Not sure how vince handles that.

[Kelu]

Oh no Kenny, don't even try to get the discussion there, the tune will be just a change of timing tables, what it needs to learn?
Or I will load the tune when leaving my city (100-150 miles) for a race, that is ok?
Or I will drive my car on street with 2-3 degrees less timing all the time only to answer to your issue. 

[SKY888]

Well the thing about flashing the car with HPT right before a race, won't it have to "learn" a bit before having max power?

Not sure how vince handles that.

kenny, when the car is on the dyno to get max power and tuning upgrades...........it gets flashed every time there's some adjustment made in between runs.   There's really no need to "learn" to get the max power IMO.

so when Kelu flashes a new tune on the car when he's on the track, I don't think, there's no need for "learning"

I personally flash my "tune" every month on my car.  Even though its the same tune.......the engine feels more alive

[Gentleman Jack]

I personally flash my "tune" every month on my car.  Even though its the same tune.......the engine feels more alive

So your saying yours learns down?  

GJ

Kelu,
Great project!  I can't wait to see the results.  Are you going to go to racing slicks when at the track?  I thought you had to stay with street tires to compete in your class?  Perhaps a set of street slicks are in order?  I'm not sure you would be able to get the power down off the line otherwise.  Also, any thoughts to what this might do to your clutch?  I know there are some options out there, but I didn't see you mention redoing your clutch.  Will this solve your need to shift into 4th at the finish line? or do you think you would be shifting sooner?  guess that is going to depend on your tire size.

Keep us posted, and remember:


GJ

[Kelu]

See Kenny???? Whole topic will go to the debate about learn down/up topic.   
Good strike Kenny aka topic killer 

Gentleman Jack: Thank you, you were so off topic that I was forced to reply to you in a different topic:
http://www.kappaperformance.com/forum/index.php?topic=5137.msg72109#msg72109

Back to subject:
Now all I do care is:
a) check the fuel pressure on the test port which is before High Pressure Fuel Pump, I think is higher than the other cars, normally is around 45 psi. I will check this with HPT while on dyno. All I hope I will not have a pressure drop before HPFP while I spray.
b) To see which spark plugs will perform great in our engine while spraying, I use now stock sparks gapped at 0.030

So the rule: check the oxygen, check the fuel and check the ignition, than you might have power.

[kennysabarese]

There's so much discussion on this on the BB guys. I'm sorry to have derailed.

Talk about it here insead http://www.kappaperformance.com/forum/index.php?topic=5263.new#new

[Gentleman Jack]

Nitrous nitrous nitrous. 

Kelu,
how many ounces (mililiters) of actually liquid does it take to spray a 50 shot?

GJ

[LatinVenom]

From an old drag racer (it has been many years ago) but you MUST balance the power with the drive train and tires.

[Yogi]

Sounds like you have put a lot of thought into this. 
Good luck, Kelu!   

[Carbon Sky]

Six, seven years ago, I got curious about how much it would cost me to put together a solid wet nitrous kit.  Once I priced it out, I was amazed at how cheap you could do it, with quality components that atleast match, if not surpass what you would get in those prepackaged kits.

I purchased an alloy tank originally designed for CO2 gas for carbonation systems, that was actually a higher pressure rating than your typical plate steel NO2 tank.  Was around $100~ CDN after taxes.  Bought 2 solenoids, one for the gasoline, the other for the nitrous (about $100~), went to a local airplane parts supply shop near the local, international airport, had them crimp up some stainless braided high pressure lines (about $45~), an "arm" switch, and a "trigger" switch ($12~), in-line fuse holder and fuse ($5), had lots of wire as always, but probably less than $5 all in, a wet nozzle from NOS and a few different sized jets to be able to spray between 15hp-150hp($75~).  So all together about $350 ish.

Come to think of it, that entire set up is somewhere in my dad's garage for the last few years . . . all I really need are lines made up and I could set that kit up in the Sky . . .  hmmm

[elff]

I thought that it isn't a good idea to fill a c02 tank with another gas afterwards?

[Critterman]

doesn't sound like it ever had co2 in it.

[Kelu]

GJ: I really don't know because nitrous is stored in a liquid form which transforms in gas when spraying. Normally out of 15lbs bottle you get 10 drag strip runs with a 75hp shot.

LatinVenom: Thank you for the advice, I will spray only in 3rd and 4th gear, already trying to get small wheels to finish at the end of 4th gear.

Yogi: Thank you sir 

Carbon Sky: Yeah, you can get cheap and far better quality with DIY systems, you gonna love this website http://www.nitrous.info/ the guy is a DIY preacher, knowledge is the power  I can't afford to experiment, my country is like africa of tuning (think that I have payed 80$ for an used nitrous line from trunk to engine bay  and costs me 60$ to fill a 15lbs bottle)

Update: Installation IS FINISHED. My great buddy who did all the electrical part did also a great thing, he wired the system using WOT Box wire which cuts the ignition, so when doing a WOT Shift and still having the button pressed (by mistake) the spray will be cut automatically. 
I will install more safety options when my nitrous cable for WOT Box will arrive.

Took it to a test on street to see if everything is ready for tomorrow dyno. Again I popped my custom throttle body because of 27.5 psi on 59F (never saw that boost under 100F) after many fixes we managed to have it fixed and working flawlessly, looks like the elbow does a better job now.

Also I sprayed it for the first time, on a 35hp nitrous nozzle and a 50hp fuel nozzle (keeping it rich to be safe), my bottle was cold (needs to be somewhere around 100-122F for the proper pressure) so nitrous shot would be half as nozzle spec with a cold bottle combined with very rich mix the power gains are killed, I have logged it but the logs are looking perfect as nitrous wouldn't be there (no point to post them up), no knock, correct lambda, correct throttle plate position, no misfires etc

Tomorrow dyno time 

[Sol Asylum]

Is it tomorrow yet?

[elff]

What did your Butt Dyno tell you on your practice run?

[Critterman]

SA it is almost nighttime in Keluland.  Early evening as I type his he should be off work and on the way to the dyno if not there already.

[Kelu]

elff: on tests the feel was minimal, maybe because I was having my attention to other things than how the car feels, things like: not rip off the traction because I was sliding a bit even when going WOT in 3rd from 4500rpm; taking care that no car/people will appear from secondary roads, keeping gas pedal down, pushing the button in the exact range, etc
I think I will have a better feedback after this weekend race event when I will spray it where all my attention will be on the car and nothing secondary.

First thing, some pictures with the setup:

Bottle (sorry about the garbage from my trunk):
[ Guests cannot view attachments ] [ Guests cannot view attachments ]

Push button, i have also a master switch hidden and always take the solenoids fuse off when not planing to spray it. When I will be spraying by safety features without pushing any button I will use this push button for purge system, I will try to make it to look better:
[ Guests cannot view attachments ]

The fogger:
[ Guests cannot view attachments ] [ Guests cannot view attachments ]

Solenoids, I didn't intend to hide them but those where best locations for them using their brackets:
[ Guests cannot view attachments ]

[SKY888]

good luck Kelu!


do lots of data logs!!!

[Kagem]

Nice project, very interesting! Waiting for the dyno, have a very good luck on your runs....