Topic: E85 and the LNF - Some Cobalts are doing it

[gmtech16450yz]

Just ran across this in an SAE mag... (Jan 2007)

We’re as flexible as our fuel systems.
Delphi’s port and direct fuel injectors deliver the flow performance, linear range and corrosion resistance
to handle any blend of ethanol and gasoline—up to 100% ethanol. It’s robust flexibility at its
best, especially when coupled with smart engine controls that instantly identify and adapt
to any fuel blend. But equally important is a flexible engineering approach that encourages
collaboration, going beyond a “one-size-fits-all” solution. With complete engine management
systems capabilities, a global perspective and 15 years of flex fuel experience—we’ll
help you put E85 on the road. Visit www.delphi.com/flexfuel.

[gmtech16450yz]

I find it very hard to believe that any of GM's fuel systems put on their cars in the last 5 years wouldn't be ok running straight E85 as far as corrosion, seals, etc goes. I found some more from Delphi, I didn't search the entire site, but all the injectors, rails and pumps I saw in here said they're fine with Ethanol even as high as 100%.

http://delphi.com/manufacturers/auto/powertrain/gas/injsys/

[kennysabarese]

I was told by the guy who impacts fuel pumps to verify warranty reimbursement for dealers that if they find e85 on a broken low pressure fuel pump, for example, that warranty payment from GM would be denied.

[snaponbob]

GM said, when the Kappas were first being delivered, and continues to say, that our cars are not "flex fuel" compatible. In the past, and currently, GM has stated that not all their cars are "flex fuel" compatible. For GM to state that a product IS "flex fuel" compatible, it must be configured to run E85. To do so, the programming must be in place and the fuel system be able to flow enough fuel. Kappas, on both counts, do not.  

Also, I believe the fuel injection system may be Bosch, not Delphi. Certainly, the computer and programming (for the LNF) is Bosch as well.

[gmtech16450yz]

Hey Bob, I'll keep this as nice as I can so maybe you won't delete it.

No where in my post did I say the Kappa's were "Flex Fuel Compatible". They aren't.

No where in my post did I say what kind of injectors the Kappa's have, or that I was referring to Kappa's in particular. (I actually have an LNF injector in my hand, the bag says Delco, it has a Delco part number, but it says it's made in Germany. It does not say Bosch on the injector, but they may have very well made these, I actually don't know. Do we really know who makes anything anymore?)

If you want me to continue to contribute on this forum I'm happy to do so, as I've said before I don't know everything but I do have some solid experience to share and have an open mind to ideas outside of the box. If you just want to twist my posts around and put words in my mouth to shoot them down, just tell me and I'll leave. I won't stick around somewhere that I'm not wanted. My post above was 100% meant to pass along information I had run across on the subject of the thread, along with some of my own opinion, based on my experience. I posted it because I believe it's valuable information that we all can use, not to argue. Somebody on here said we should all keep and open mind, I absolutely believe if you don't, you cannot learn. I try to keep mine as open as possible.

BTW Kenny, I thought about the low pressure pump too, but couldn't find a part number on the new Buick to compare it to the older pumps. I did see on that Delphi site that they showed the high pressure pump, and said it was 100% Ethanol compatible. Again, I don't know if it's the exact pump that's in our Kappa's, but it looked just like it. And of course, it wasn't made by Delphi (or Bosch). So as far as running E85, or E50 in our Kappa's, the low pressure pump is one of the components that is debatable whether it's ok with E or not. IDK. As far as my experience goes, GM pumps don't do that good on gasoline anyway! At least the pumps on the Kappa's are super easy to change.

[snaponbob]

GMTech, please don't flatter yourself. My post was in response to a lot of comments. If I want to address a specific post, I always either a) address the author (i.e. this post), or b) quote it.

Next, why do you think I would delete someones post? This forum just does not operate that way.

I have NEVER stated anything negative about your skill set or experience.

I was involved (a while ago), along with others here, in trying to buy the LNF MAP sensors before GM US released them outside of the 290 bhp upgrade software package. At the time, the part number was for a GM (Delco) part that was sourced in Germany. It was/is Bosch. Opel did the development on the LNF package  and used Bosch for technology. Actually, Bosch does a lot of work with/for GM.

Further, your participation here is your choice. If I were attempting to chase you away a) you would know it, and b) I don't have that power anyway.  We both have some "background", and it is doubtful either is better than the other. If there was a VIABLE E85 solution for the LNF, I would have it and would have shared the info with this forum. I don't like E85 for a lot or reasons, but if I could benefit from it, I would be running it because the added power would help in my racing. (I can't use meth in my class, so I am stuck with pump fuels.)

Lastly, there are more than a few here that I have engaged in plenty of back and forth. They are still here, and so am I. Sharing an opposite or different view on any subject is not a repudiation of that person.

[DeepBlueGXP]

GMTech, there are rare circumstances that we (moderators or admins) delete posts. 
1. As requested by the originator of the post
2. A spammer or ponography was posted

If we edit a members post due to a violation of the user agreement (profanity), there will be a note provided below the said line and I have my forum set to tell all users that to post was edited by, time, date and reason. 

[tazz]

You can read up on the subject on HPT forum some are running crazy amounts of timing on the top end with different mixes of E.  Most know that they might just be on limited time and most know the risks and there fine with it.  To say weather it's good or bad just depends even messing with the GMPP tune where HPT only has control over a handful of tables when compared to the over 2500 tables is somewhat dangerous.

[snaponbob]

You can read up on the subject on HPT forum some are running crazy amounts of timing on the top end with different mixes of E.  Most know that they might just be on limited time and most know the risks and there fine with it.  To say weather it's good or bad just depends even messing with the GMPP tune where HPT only has control over a handful of tables when compared to the over 2500 tables is somewhat dangerous.

Finally !!!!!      The guys that are playing with mixes of E85 in the LNF are dancing barefooted on a large pile of razor blades.    If their feet bleed, it GM's responsibility !!!!!!   

[tazz]

Why would it be GM's responsibility if there dope enough to run E85 they would be foolish to try to get GM to pay for there choice to run E85.
Also Im sure that GM would be able to figure it out that E85 or whatever mix there were running caused the issues with there fuel system.
Also sure that while our cars may not do well over the long haul on E85 it does go to reason that if in need the fuel system is designed for E85 in emergency use since E85 has been around for awhile now.  Kind of like if there is not higher octane fuel than 91 available you can run 87 with not a single problem in the short term.

[Imaj]

You can read up on the subject on HPT forum some are running crazy amounts of timing on the top end with different mixes of E.  Most know that they might just be on limited time and most know the risks and there fine with it.  To say weather it's good or bad just depends even messing with the GMPP tune where HPT only has control over a handful of tables when compared to the over 2500 tables is somewhat dangerous.

I am glad they are doing this. I am sure some good info. will be had by these folks pushing the limits. Right on!

[snaponbob]

Why would it be GM's responsibility if there dope enough to run E85 they would be foolish to try to get GM to pay for there choice to run E85.
Also Im sure that GM would be able to figure it out that E85 or whatever mix there were running caused the issues with there fuel system.
Also sure that while our cars may not do well over the long haul on E85 it does go to reason that if in need the fuel system is designed for E85 in emergency use since E85 has been around for awhile now.  Kind of like if there is not higher octane fuel than 91 available you can run 87 with not a single problem in the short term.

If one were to toss a couple gallons of E85 into a half tank of gas, the car may run (sort of) okay, but a load of E85 in a non flex fuel car might not even start !!!! BTW, E85 is SO inefficient (low latent heat) that in Brazil most cars the run straight ethanol have aux gas tanks to be used to actually START the engines below 35-40 degrees F. 

[gmtech16450yz]

Wow, what would you doubting Thomas's have said to that caveman that discovered fire? "Don't mess with that scary stuff, WE'RE ALL GONNA DIE!" How about back when that other guy chiseled a rock into a wheel? "Don't hit two rocks together, SOMEBODY COULD LOOSE AN EYE!"

Really guys, you need to open up those minds, there's a great big world out there that isn't always what "somebody says", or "GM says" conforms to.

Here's a couple "Facts"...

The LNF is a "knock limited" motor on 91 octane fuel, EVEN AT THE 260/260 POWER AND BOOST LEVELS. (Even GM says the 260/260 figures cannot be met with low grade fuels.) With the GMPP tune, or any other boost raising tune, the LNF is SEVERELY knock limited on pump gas. You CANNOT reach MBT on and LNF on 91 octane, much less anything lower. Universities (I believe MIT?) have done studies on the LNF motor specifically, testing different fuels, especially Ethanol. They found there absolutely were benefits to running E85 in the LNF, I think the numbers were somewhere around 10% or above, not positive on that one. (Oh dear, they ran an LNF on 100% Ethanol, weren't they afraid it was going to blow up or something? No, because when you're afraid you CAN'T LEARN NEW THINGS.)
Ethanol does have a horrible carbon footprint, but it WILL make more power in most motors, especially knock limited motors. Anyone that's been tuning anything lately knows Ethanol makes power over pump gas. An engine tuned for and running a mix of Ethanol will run cooler, cleaner and be able to run considerably more timing, which 8 out of 10 times means more power.

Yes, I do know more about a few of the tables in the LNF than some popular tuners out there. (Obviously there may, and probably are things that they know that I don't know either. That's why a free exchange of ideas helps everyone.)  I know that because I've talked to them and they aren't doing what I'm doing. They've tried hardware changes to the LNF and found they didn't work, only because THEY DIDN'T KNOW HOW TO TUNE FOR THE CHANGES. I've done hardware changes that everyone "says" won't work, run into the same issues they have, and found how to fix the issues with software. End result, hardware change that common internet knowledge says won't work making more power with someone that knows how to make things work.

Here's a couple more tidbits of my "history" to give people an idea of what I can do.

I worked on a pit crew at the Indy 500 in the early '80's. No, I'm not a race car groupie, photographer or vendor, and no, I'm not talking about racing cars around a parking lot, I'm talking working in the garages at Indy. (Oh, btw, the first time I smelled E85 burning in a modern car I had flashbacks of Indy. It smelled JUST LIKE BEING THERE!)
I've worked on hundreds of '60's and '70's muscle cars, some worth several hundred thousand dollars each. After everyone else has worked on them, they bring them to me and I get more horse power out of them than anyone else.
I've worked on vintage Trans Am cars, not just tuning but every part of the cars.
I'm currently working on a late '50's race car, an internationally known one of a kind car that will be the centerpiece of an auction this summer. It should bring somewhere around three quarters of a million dollars. I'm the only one trusted to work on it.
Oh, anybody heard of Barrett-Jackson? A handful of the cars I've built have crossed that auction block.

Here's the bottom line for me, I don't like beating my chest like I just did, it's not what I'm like and it just pisses people off so I try to keep as humble as I can. This forum has made me feel like I have to defend myself and my ideas because a few people can't accept anything outside of "What GM says". I'm telling you guys you're behind the times because you're not letting new ideas flourish. If I feel like I need to spend more time proving my ideas work than actually sharing what I've learned I won't bother.

That said, I think this will be my last post on here. My apologies to the guys that have read what I've written and learned from it, and would like more, I just don't have time for the negative nellies.

Later.

[LatinVenom]

I think the problem is not being able to speak with the person.
Tying to put your thoughts to paper sometimes leads the reader to misunderstand what you are trying to convey.
This is the reason I like to have live get together.
I think Bob is saying an OEM Kappa LNF engine will suffer damage if you run a high level of E85.
GMTECH then says but if you were to make these changes then you could.
At least this is the way I am interpreting their posts.
Bob is trying to make the point that without modifications it is not a good idea.
GMTECH knows that with modifications it does work, but somehow you feel he is disagreeing with you, but he is not really talking about a modified LNF but one that is not.
Is this what is happening or I am not getting the meaning of their posts?.
I think a healthy debate is very good for the forum and I for one believe more of this is better, than just throwing the towel and walking away.

[snaponbob]

LV, I am 100% sure that you have pretty much nailed it. A major difference is that I don't have any needed to prove anything. Having my head handed to my by E85 tuned EVO's (that had a 75-100 whp bump from 100 octane race gas) I am painfully aware of what the difference is. If there was any way of running E85 in Streak, it would have been done. If ANYBODY can tell me how to safely convert to E85, I'll do it. He never would answer such basic questions. Oh well. His loss.

[tazz]

If one were to toss a couple gallons of E85 into a half tank of gas, the car may run (sort of) okay, but a load of E85 in a non flex fuel car might not even start !!!! BTW, E85 is SO inefficient (low latent heat) that in Brazil most cars the run straight ethanol have aux gas tanks to be used to actually START the engines below 35-40 degrees F.  

There not just dumping E85 and not doing squat with the tune.  There altering the tune so to run E85 or whatever mix they are going for and Milelage does suffer but the gains are quite large and running 22* on the top end of there tune.  Email BTF, Gimpster or GMtech or a few others on the subject over on HPT and you'll findout all the info you need to know and how there doing it.
Hell Gimpster lives in my town now and just a few miles from me I should track him down to have him explain to me whats all going on since he is running an E mix.  

[kennysabarese]

there are a lot of guys doing it on the HPT forum, but will it break stuff... we'll find out. So far the best results is a 50/50 mix of 93 octane/E85

[tazz]

Im not saying it won't just that's it's being done.  I think I am Broke has some issues right now.
http://www.hptuners.com/forum/showthread.php?t=30353
http://www.hptuners.com/forum/showthread.php?t=31652