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Author Topic: Complete Brake failure on race course=Crash  (Read 9047 times)

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Offline Kenny

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Re: Complete Brake failure on race course=Crash
« Reply #25 on: June 07, 2011, 10:48:56 AM »
Brakes Front calipers melted seals and not useable
Can you explain this more? What seals? What calipers were you using?

The stock brake ducts don't do shit, the tire covers them when you turn. I'm getting brake cooling spindle ducts. You may want to check them out. They should be ready soon.
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Offline elff

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Re: Complete Brake failure on race course=Crash
« Reply #26 on: June 07, 2011, 11:38:14 AM »
apparently my body shop removed my cooling ducts when I had my front fender repainted.
DOH!!!!

Didn't know until the hood and fender were off.

Gray,
Im happy to hear you are ok and that while it will cost some money, damages were fairly minor.


Offline Critterman

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Re: Complete Brake failure on race course=Crash
« Reply #27 on: June 07, 2011, 12:06:31 PM »
Did you go see him yet and find out what he did with them?
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Offline Graywolf

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Re: Complete Brake failure on race course=Crash
« Reply #28 on: June 07, 2011, 12:35:17 PM »
Not a bent wheel,rotors are new,no vent ducts on rear. They just looked @ the car and said the noise is common after new brake install and will disappear usually in the first 500 miles or so and not to worry! Kenny they are oem brakes and I saw melted rubber on the front caliper. Not sure that it is a seal but it was part of the caliper. So I will have to do some break in of the brakes in the next few days. Anyone have a protocal for the break in period,it will be very short for sure,maybe 20 miles at best.I am amazed how wonderfully helpfull and nice you all have been. Thank You
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Offline Kenny

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Re: Complete Brake failure on race course=Crash
« Reply #29 on: June 07, 2011, 12:43:46 PM »
The only rubber on the caliper would be the piston dust boot and the seal, not a lot of rubber, but if the seal melted, fluid would go beyond the piston and onto the pads. Did you have brake fluid leaking? Brake fluid on the pad is bad, but not sure if it causes catastrophic failure.

If it's just the dust boot melting, it shouldn't cause a catastrophic failure. I have ripped dust boots on a few of my calipers and they work fine. (but i will replace them eventually)

When I google I see others that have had the problem.

http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=melted+caliper+boot&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8
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Offline LatinVenom

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Re: Complete Brake failure on race course=Crash
« Reply #30 on: June 07, 2011, 03:29:47 PM »
Put light pressure on the brakes at low speed and see if you hear the sound.
Those the sound skips or is it constant when you do the above?.
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Offline DeepBlueGXP

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Re: Complete Brake failure on race course=Crash
« Reply #31 on: June 07, 2011, 04:16:14 PM »
Quote from: Some smart mechanic
BRAKE PAD BEDDING IN PROCEDURE To ensure maximum performance and customer satisfaction, new brake pads must be bedded in upon installation. Correct bedding guarantees that new brake pads and new rotors work flawlessly together. In order to function optimally, organic brake pads must develop friction coal on its surface. This friction coal develops at a temperature of approximately 280C (537F). It is very important that this temperature is reached continuously and slowly. This gradual process generates temperatures that not only penetrate the surface of the brake discs and pads, but also distribute evenly through the whole disc and pad material. This is essential when using new brake discs, since the disc often shows signs of stress (due to the casting process and fast cooling) in the materials. A steady and careful warming and cooling process guarantees a good release of both materials. The bedding in/break in procedure should be done as follows: Drive at approx. 35 mph (60 kmh) for about 500 yards (solid front discs) to 800 yards (vented front discs) while slightly dragging the brakes (i.e. light brake pedal pressure). This process allows the brake temperature to slowly and evenly build up to 300C (572F). Now, if possible, drive about 2200 yards maintaining the same speed without braking. This will allow the pads and discs to cool down evenly. After this cool-down, perform a normal brake application from 35 mph to 0. No panic stops! Now, the friction surface has evenly developed friction coal, the pads have bonded with the disc surface, and tensions in the disc materials will have disappeared. Only trained master mechanics should perform this procedure before delivering the vehicle to its owner. Do not expect your customer to properly finish your brake job! This bedding process is only suitable for the front axle - not the rear. This is due to the brake force distribution of front and rear axles. In order to reach 300C (527F) on the rear pads you would have to drive several miles with dragging brakes. However, in that time the front brakes will be glowing red, overheating and thus destroying the front brakes. Final note dont forget to clean hubs and check the wheel bearings. Also, the brake fluid should be replaced at least every 2 years.

Offline elff

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Re: Complete Brake failure on race course=Crash
« Reply #32 on: June 07, 2011, 04:18:16 PM »
Good info!!

Offline Kenny

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Re: Complete Brake failure on race course=Crash
« Reply #33 on: June 08, 2011, 11:24:21 AM »
Every pad manufacturer has slightly different bed in procedure, and if you have fresh rotor surface it can change the process as well. So definitely get the instructions from the manufacturer of your pads!
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Offline Graywolf

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Re: Complete Brake failure on race course=Crash
« Reply #34 on: June 09, 2011, 09:24:23 AM »
Thanks for the info,my instructions just say no heavy braking for 500 miles if possible.I willuse the process you described
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Offline Arabas

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Re: Complete Brake failure on race course=Crash
« Reply #35 on: June 09, 2011, 09:36:55 AM »
i used this method to break in my Opel Vectra OPC front brakes (rotors and pads). the info was provided by lil goat. worked for me

http://www.zeckhausen.com/bedding_in_brakes.htm
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Offline Kenny

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Re: Complete Brake failure on race course=Crash
« Reply #36 on: June 09, 2011, 11:52:40 AM »
You have to be careful with bedding, because if you are using racing pads, it's VERY hard to get them up to temperature, which is what you have to do in order to bed them, get them up close to their temperature limit (when they smell) then let them cool off.

I couldn't bed my Carbotech's on the street where I live. It would be very hard to do without having no police and no cars for a very very long stretch of highway.  But they are 1,600 degree pads.
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Offline Graywolf

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Re: Complete Brake failure on race course=Crash
« Reply #37 on: June 09, 2011, 09:31:29 PM »
I just drove the car for about 1 mile @ 35 mph with some pressure on the brakes then let cool some and made a few stops. The rear brake noise is gone. Will do some slower warm up laps at the track this Saturday before the Race. They either will break in or break!  This will be my last race until the middle of August when I will race ever two weeks x 4. Stupid schedule this year but I suspect it has something to do with prime track rental fees being so high. The weather is very rainy so it hard to drive more since my car is allergic to rain! My car is Topless!!!
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Offline werks

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Re: Complete Brake failure on race course=Crash
« Reply #38 on: August 08, 2011, 11:24:12 PM »
Glad to hear you were okay!

Do you still run ABS on your car on the track?  If so I would disable it, the ABS system absolutely sucks on the racetrack and does all sorts of goofy things.  Disabled mine and will never go back!
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Offline Kenny

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Re: Complete Brake failure on race course=Crash
« Reply #39 on: August 08, 2011, 11:37:19 PM »
The more I read about ABS, the more I am beginning to think that upgrading tires and brakes will actually result in the ABS performing worse and causing your braking distances to suffer.

There are algorithms that rely on a certain amount of grip from the tires and braking force that can be applied, and when you start to alter that, you could have problems.

Dave, how do you disable the ABS?
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Offline Uranium-238

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Re: Complete Brake failure on race course=Crash
« Reply #40 on: August 08, 2011, 11:56:07 PM »
Physically cut it out from between the master brake cylinder and the calipers?
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Offline NormSky

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Re: Complete Brake failure on race course=Crash
« Reply #41 on: August 09, 2011, 12:07:44 AM »
Just pull the fuse. Might disconnect stability program at the same time. If your not trail braking you should not have a problem with stock setup. The stock brake bias is very strong to the front wheels with a short wheel base can be a handful. What I found out in the snow is just lift off the throttle and the back end will come back in line. You can counter steer but wide width tire width your better off snapping the throttle closed if the rear kicks out.
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Offline Go-N Def

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Re: Complete Brake failure on race course=Crash
« Reply #42 on: August 09, 2011, 04:04:38 AM »
You can just hold the button down on your dash for 10 seconds if I'm not mistaken.  This will turn off all of the nanny controls...

Offline Arabas

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Re: Complete Brake failure on race course=Crash
« Reply #43 on: August 09, 2011, 04:38:46 AM »
You can just hold the button down on your dash for 10 seconds if I'm not mistaken.  This will turn off all of the nanny controls...
no, it will not take ABS off, only TC and esc. the best way to disconnect it is to pull the fuse, but then you will also not have TC and esc and you ll probably get an error message on the dash.
furthermore, the ABS will not work more with bigger brakes (rotors and/or calipers). it will only work if conditons are met so that the brakes are about to block. with bigger brakes, this is less likely in high speeds.
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Offline Kuprito

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Re: Complete Brake failure on race course=Crash
« Reply #44 on: August 09, 2011, 06:10:07 AM »
Some people say that our stock brakes are more than enough...
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Offline snaponbob

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Re: Complete Brake failure on race course=Crash
« Reply #45 on: August 09, 2011, 06:34:57 AM »
1) True, the TC button has no control over the ABS.
2) Pulling the ABS fuse may only disable the ABS, but since maybe nobody has tried, there may be a learning curve to see what else it may affect. Probably nothing.
3) GM loves excessive front brake bias.
4) If larger brakes are installed on the front only, the brakes will probably have better feel, but the bias will shift further forward.
5) If I were thinking of pulling the ABS fuse, I would be tempted to go to larger REAR brakes, NOT the fronts. The fronts are over loaded BECAUSE the rears are not doing much. Get the rears helping, the balance will improve and because the car will slow quicker the brakes will be in use LESS!!
6) The ABS system has no idea whats size brakes are in use  --  one wheel speed rates. Nothing else. That said, add sticky tires and real aggressive brakes, and you have the perfect storm for overwhelming the ABS computer maps. Z06 guys are seeing the same issue. This holds true in Solo AND road race.
7) In all forms of racing (solo to F1) excess brake use leads to failures. Fuel and tires have to be "managed", and so do brakes. At some point, the gas will be exhaust, tires overtaxed, and brakes overheated. 
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Offline Kenny

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Re: Complete Brake failure on race course=Crash
« Reply #46 on: August 09, 2011, 06:41:58 AM »
Here is some info on how brake upgrades can affect ABS.

http://www.stoptech.com/tech_info/wp_abs_bigbrakekits.shtml

Also some info about brake bias. Some important points are that when you upgrade your tires, your G force under braking increases. That means you are sending more weight transfer to the front when you hit the brakes, making it more likely for the rears to lock up.

http://www.stoptech.com/tech_info/wp_rearbrake_upgrades.shtml
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Offline snaponbob

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Re: Complete Brake failure on race course=Crash
« Reply #47 on: August 09, 2011, 07:07:50 AM »
Great post, Kenny.

I would love to get to the point of rear lock up. THAT is EASY to fix.
The articles confirm that ABS is all about the wheel speeds.
The assertion that higher brake force means more weight shift, BUT, the limiting factor is the contact patch and coefficient of friction. In Solo, things happen so fast that ABS "confusion" is a minor issue. Probably a BIG issue at higher speeds!! A lot of non-GM cars have far less over bias to the front, and having that extra benefit of using the rear contact patch is nice to feel. 
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Offline Mike1885

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Re: Complete Brake failure on race course=Crash
« Reply #48 on: August 31, 2011, 10:45:14 AM »
So Bob, is there any follow-up.  How did your repairs go.  Did you race the car recently. 

I had a similar problem which turned out to be just the fluid boiling.  I replaced the fluid but it took me about three bottles to get all of the air out.  No problems since.  I did disconnect the ABS after that and it did improve things.  Now I run it with the ABS on and have had no problems since.

MIKE

 

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