Topic: Poly bushings

[snaponbob]

Just started installing Energy Suspensions poly bushings. No reflection on the vendor, but this is about a pain in the ass. It is going, but slowly. Not bragging, but you better have some mechaical skills and some tools available. There are a lot of things that are not too difficult to do do to Kappas to improve all sorts of things, but this takes some commitment. That said, the poly bushings are firmer than the stock ones, but not so hard that the ride will be harmed. I did the same on my TR8 (much easier, actually) and it was all positive. Probably going make me want the Backbone even more. 

[spicy3480]

I have wanted to get these but was worried about installing them...did u need a press?

[snaponbob]

I have wanted to get these but was worried about installing them...did u need a press?

I am using a ball joint press to push the rear bushings out. Haven't moved to the front yet, but without a driveshaft to deal with that should be easier. I was getting absolutely nowhere pushing the bushings in (an arbor press is called for in the instructions) but a plea for suggestions to Energy Suspensions brought a suggestion that I use all thread, washers, and nuts. Except for some deformed washers (I'll get thicker ones today) the top bushings are in. On the lower control arms I have not been able to separate the lower ball joint (may have to buy a 35mm socket today to allow removal of the half shaft) so am working under the car instead of at the work bench. The bushings are out, and per the instructions, I have used the good old "blue wrench" to heat the metal inserts to melt them free of the runner as the bottom ones are reused (CHEAP of E.S on THAT part). For some reason (I am sure to reduce flex in the stock rubber bushing) the rear lower bushing sleeve bulges in the middle. That is going to have to be machined to insert in the poly bushing. That will wait for Monday as I want to ask E.S. about this. My guess is that this is a unique FE3 feature as all the available bushing sets on the market for the Kappas are for the 2.4 (FE2 suspension) and I may have found out why!!

If I can actually get some good shots I may document the right side rear as I do it. I am fortunate in that I have a 6HP 80 gallon IR compressor (a LOT of air) and plenty of air tools. Fortunately I have an air hammer and the needed goodies for this job. A pickle fork was needed to do one of the tasks on the bushing on the lower arm. If I had the lower arms off the car a hand hammer driven fork could work on the bench. Bottom line, this may not (as in IS not) an average hand tool sort of task. Now, a buddy WITH the good stuff and some liquid bribes would be fine, especially if he will "help". More later.

[Yamatr3]

Go buy one of these.  It is cheap and will make the process so much easier, plus you will get it done in half the time.  We used this same one when we did mine and it still took 6 hours.

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=1667

[Sol Asylum]

A hydraulic press is great but if like Bob is saying he can't remove the lower control arm from the car the press will not help.

The lower control arms will pop free of the ball joint and make things easier for you but you need to be careful that you don't damage the boot on the ball joint.  I watched my dealers tech do this on my car when they did the pinion seal recall, I ended up getting to come back two weeks later for them to replace my lower control arms, you can't replace just the ball joints.  FYI the control arms are about $250 each but they do come with new bushings already installed.

A trick that I have been told about but never tried is to loosen the ball joint nut and then take a ball peen hammer and tap on the housing that the ball joint taper is in.  The spring/shock which is preloaded even when the car is off the ground is supposed to help force the joint free.
 
If I had to remove the lower control arms again I would make a tool that allowed me to press the ball joint free of the hub trunnion.  I don't thing that this would be that hard to do with some angle iron I would basically make a rectangle that bolts together and then has a bolt at the bottom.  The idea would be to loosen the nut on the ball joint and place the angle frame around the drive shaft so that the top of the frame would press against the top of the trunnion and the bolt would be above the lower ball joint, then you could tread the bolt down and press the ball joint free.  As this is just a pressed taper connection it doesn't take much to pop the fitting free.

[spicy3480]

Gees...all of this sounds like a major pain in the butt just to change out the bushings.  Is it really worth all the trouble?

[snaponbob]

A hydraulic press is great but if like Bob is saying he can't remove the lower control arm from the car the press will not help.

The lower control arms will pop free of the ball joint and make things easier for you but you need to be careful that you don't damage the boot on the ball joint.  I watched my dealers tech do this on my car when they did the pinion seal recall, I ended up getting to come back two weeks later for them to replace my lower control arms, you can't replace just the ball joints.  FYI the control arms are about $250 each but they do come with new bushings already installed.

A trick that I have been told about but never tried is to loosen the ball joint nut and then take a ball peen hammer and tap on the housing that the ball joint taper is in.  The spring/shock which is preloaded even when the car is off the ground is supposed to help force the joint free.
 
If I had to remove the lower control arms again I would make a tool that allowed me to press the ball joint free of the hub trunnion.  I don't thing that this would be that hard to do with some angle iron I would basically make a rectangle that bolts together and then has a bolt at the bottom.  The idea would be to loosen the nut on the ball joint and place the angle frame around the drive shaft so that the top of the frame would press against the top of the trunnion and the bolt would be above the lower ball joint, then you could tread the bolt down and press the ball joint free.  As this is just a pressed taper connection it doesn't take much to pop the fitting free.

There are ball joint boot protectors available, but I was not going to invest the time running around for them. I used to sell them off of my tool truck. As for taking a swing at the control arm, that does not work so well on jack stands Just not enough room. This is why I started on the back because I knew to would be a ball buster, and has not disappointed so to speak. But the rear is done except for popping the shocks back in and that is a piece of cake. Things will move more quickly in the front as there are no drive shafts so access to everything is easier.

As for whether it is worth it, having done this before I KNOW that it is.

[2kwk4u]

For some reason (I am sure to reduce flex in the stock rubber bushing) the rear lower bushing sleeve bulges in the middle. That is going to have to be machined to insert in the poly bushing. That will wait for Monday as I want to ask E.S. about this. My guess is that this is a unique FE3 feature as all the available bushing sets on the market for the Kappas are for the 2.4 (FE2 suspension) and I may have found out why!!

 

I was under the impression that the kits were only offered for N/A non-ZOK applications because of swaybar diameters.  Would definitely like to know if the control arms are different as well.  Can anyone CONFIRM this?

[snaponbob]

I was under the impression that the kits were only offered for N/A non-ZOK applications because of swaybar diameters.  Would definitely like to know if the control arms are different as well.  Can anyone CONFIRM this?

Up until I started this task I thought the sway bar bushings were the only issue. Maybe I have found out why there are only 2.4 kits. Here is what I have seen so far;

- The control arms all have the same size opening at the pivot ends at any given pivot whether it is a 2.4 (FE2) or 2.0 (FE3). Thus the bushings can interchange. I have not researched part numbers.
- The sway bar bushings are different ARE different between the FE2 and FE3 suspensions. So are the corresponding brackets. Minor issue. Energy Suspension (for one) offers a master kit with everything including the diff bushing, or the front, rear, bars, and diff bushings as separate sets.
- The one item so far that I have found that may differentiate the FE3 and FE2 is the rear bushing on the rear lower control arms. (I'll post a picture later this morning.) For some reason E.S. cheaps out and does not send along the metal inserts for the lower bushings.
- I suspect that the lower bushings may be odd in the front as well. Why? I received an e-mail in 2006 talking about this. "For some reason, I forgot to mention that the lower control arm bushings for the front suspension, and the smaller bushing for the rear lower control arm are stiffer and have some tricks in them for the FE3 suspension level. I estimate they are nearly as stiff as a polyurethane replacement bushing like what you could buy from energy suspension."
- The bushings are certainly firmer than stock. I can certainly feel this once they are out of the car and in my hands. The polys are not HARD plastic, but rather very firm yet pliable plastic vs. rubber.

I plan on calling E.S. on Monday to talk about these issues. The front end will be on hold until I do as I may ask them for new metal inserts if they can supply them rather than machine the stock ones like had to be done on the rear. What GM has done is actually a pretty slick idea, but makes life a bit more difficult for back yard hacks like me.

Do I recommend poly bushings? YES. And NO. My expectations, based on nothing more than THESE bushing vs. others that I have used on other cars is that the actual "butt dyno" results will be subtle in every day driving, yet at a SOLO event the tangible benefits could only be determined by back to back runs with identical cars. (My TR8 with Spax shocks [junk!!], lowered stiffer springs and stiffer bars is wonderful on the street with poly bushing everywhere including front subframe and steering rack.) So, YES, if you want the best response in Solo in classes "above" Stock. YES, if you want the maximum wheel control AFTER front, rear, and tunnel braces are installed. YES, if you have the tools and ability to do this or are willing to pay a bunch to have it done. NO, if you have not done any other suspension mods (no real value would be gained). NO, if you can't do it yourself or don't want to stomach a big labor bill (easily over a grand).

[Yamatr3]

For the guys asking if it worth it, It really is.  It makes the car so much cripsper.  My car was an NA car, so I didn't run into any problems.  I posted a thread on the big board and it has a few pics in it.  It shows what SnaponBob is speaking of.     The thread is titled "new suspension with energy bushings".

[snaponbob]

Well, the car is on the ground again. It seems "stiff" (as in not moving freely) vertically, but that will imporve with some miles. Clearly the right rear wheel is toed in a bit, so any handling impressions are bogus right now. I'll get out the toe plates, strings, and angle gauge to correct that. Also found the torque specs for the pivot bolts, so I have a bit to do. But right now I am busy watching the 200 lap left turn orgy.

[Critterman]

Well you get a break bob, it didn't go 200 laps, so you get to go back to work early

[snaponbob]

Well ...................... there is the matter of a roast in the oven and some Merlot nearby. So, the car has just been relegated to a lonely night of solitude !!!!!!!! Don't get me wrong, it's a nice car. It's a BETTER dinner. 

[snaponbob]

Have a call into Energy Suspension about these which came out of the rear lower bushings on the rear control arms. According to an e-mail from a "source", BOTH lower front bushings have these as well. I had these two bushings machined but waiting for a callback from E.S. about the fronts. E.S. IS working on FE3 bushing sets because of these "pregnant" sleeves (as they called them). Apparently these can be found on Hondas, too!!!!

[lil goat]

I remember doing this on my 240Z a very long time ago, was it worth it yes, will I ever do it again NO! Good Luck Bob!

[snaponbob]

Rear is done. BETTER. The fronts should be easier. Had a nice discussion with Energy Suspension about the kit. I asked if there were any issues with cutting the bushings in half and inserting them from each end. He said he would check but thought it would work. Regardless of the answer, I may do the fronts this way. Haven't decided. But I DID learn why there is not yet a kit for the FE3 cars. PM for some insight.