Topic: Intercooler

[snaponbob]

Since you are "back", here we go. How much is the Redline intercooler and will it fit without any cutting or mods (SCCA Solo rules compliance)?

[SKY888]

its down to $549.99 right now:   http://www.turbosystem.com/New_Folder/SolsticeGXPRedline/GXP%20Redline%20Intercooler%20Sell%20Page.htm

when I installed hahn IC on my car before, I have to shave some of the plastic shroud to fit.

the hahn IC was around 900 bucks before.   so its basically 30% less right now.

high quality product, and very solid.

[snaponbob]

Can the plastic bits be pushed around to "force" the fit? If not, can't use it. There is one that fits, but not giving that guy my money.

[elff]

Are they really going to remove your front bumper to check?
Because that is where all the trimming will be
and
It will only be an issue if you win Nationals and someone challenges you
and last
A small amount of trimming, should still allow you to fall into the SCCA guideline

[SKY888]

now that Bob announced it in the forum.

Chances of his bumper getting checked will be higher ..... lol

[elff]

Hell

The Tech idiots don't even know how to open our Hoods.

Whenever I go to an AutoX event I have to yell at the tech before he rips off my grill attempting to find the hood latch
Then I tell them to just put the sticker on my dash because they obviously don't know what they are looking at if they can't figure out how to properly open a hood.

[Bill Hahn Jr]

Thanks everyone!  Yes, this intercooler unit is a smokin' deal right now at $549.99

The trimming of the internal shroud required to fit our intercooler is very slight, and would be nigh impossible to detect...not that I would ever advocate cheating, mind you!  I suppose a creative enough installer could find a way to slightly adapt the position of the shroud so as to prevent this light trim, should he or she be concerned about 100% compliance with SCCA regs.

If anyone would like to learn more, let me know your email address and I'll be happy to send you the install instruction set for a look.

[snaponbob]

1) Aftermarket I/Cs in a Kappa are as obvious as the nose on ones face. ANY trimming to fit an I/C is illegal in SP classes - period. No gray areas on this.
2) Legality is legality. Cheating is cheating. There are mods that can be done to ones car that can not be seen and would be almost impossible to protest or detect. But running "clean" is more than not hitting cones.
3) Haven't experienced "tech idiot" issues. Why? The driver is supposed to "present" a car for inspection. To that end, I always pop the hood and trunk. In the past, when I did tech at events, I ALWAYS asked the person presenting the car to open everything. Having run a lot of Tours, Nats, and Divs, almost universally the people in tech do the same.
4) Bill, if you would send the instructions, that would be great.         snaponbob@comcast.net
5) BTW, protests are not restricted to class winners.

[Bill Hahn Jr]

In considering this valid question about our intercooler, I have decided to explore the possibility of devising an installation method for SCCA racers that will not require any trimming.   It's a nice coincidence that we are about to install our intercooler on our own in-house prototype Sky RedLine, at which time I will investigate the likelihood of such a no-trim install. 

For those of you who have not yet met this car, it's Aubrey's fifth Sky, which she has named RedMist.  It's the seventh Kappa we've owned between us, and we'll be posting more info about it soon!

If one of you SCCA racers would be so kind as to reproduce here the portion of their rulebook which addresses this, I'd be most appreciative.  I want to know the exact "letter of the law" before I proceed with this installation variation.

[miller11386]

I can say from the logs i have seen on other cars, this IC cools great! A fantastic hahn product!

[elff]

Bill

If you go to
http://www.scca.com/downloads
Scroll all the way to the bottom of the page
There is a section for Solo
    2012 SCCA Solo Rules
    2012 SCCA ProSolo Rules
are the 2 pdfs you are looking for.

Bob
1. Without taking off my bumper, you can't see any of the installation of the IC.  You can only see the IC through the black mess and you would need to know what a stock one looked like before you could see it was different.  It's far from obvious
2.  Everyone stretches the rules as much as possible in SCCA as in all racing.  That is not cheating.  It's getting the most you can out of what is written and it's not considered illegal until it is ruled as such.  Pushing the rules is part of the competition.  Use MB's rear wing in F1 and the floor board in the red bulls as examples. 
3. I have.  I don't drive with my hood open,  So there is enough time from me stopping the car when It is my turn in the tech line, to getting out of the car,  where I have to tell a person to stop before they start doing anything.   It's not universal but stupidity and people doing a job they aren't qualified for can be.
5.  Nope but most people don't waste their time at the local levels and most stock cars aren't.  Hell I see people post up all the time about competing in BS or AS with certain DDM mods which actually put you in FP.

I am positive you can find a way to install this to make it SCCA legal

[JoshMcMadMac]

I have not seen for myself, but would it be possible to use a heat gun to slightly "tweak" the shroud that is in the way?  It may not be quite as pretty or preferable, but perhaps that would still keep you compliant?

[Bill Hahn Jr]

Bill

If you go to
http://www.scca.com/downloads
Scroll all the way to the bottom of the page
There is a section for Solo
    2012 SCCA Solo Rules
    2012 SCCA ProSolo Rules
are the 2 pdfs you are looking for.

elff, thanks for the links!  I had a look at the Solo Rules, but was unable to find the section(s) that define the question being asked here about intercooler shrouding.  If you're more familiar with the rulebook format, can you please tell me at what page number or section I would be able to view this info?

I have not seen for myself, but would it be possible to use a heat gun to slightly "tweak" the shroud that is in the way?  It may not be quite as pretty or preferable, but perhaps that would still keep you compliant?

I think that's an excellent suggestion.  I'll keep this one in mind as I review the SCCA rules.

[Critterman]

I put 'intercooler' in the search block and came up with these.  SOB is probably refering to page 102

Page 88 Solo rules:

F. The engine management system parameters and operation may be
modified only via the methods listed below. These allowances also
apply to forced induction cars, except that no changes to standard
boost levels, intercoolers, or boost controls are permitted. Boost
changes indirectly resulting from allowed modifications are permissible,
but directly altering or modifying the boost or turbo controls,
either mechanically or electronically, is strictly prohibited. Traction
control parameters may not be altered. Any standard OBD communications
port functionality must remain. The Check Engine Light
(CEL) or Malfunction Indicator Light (MIL) may be disabled via software.
Alternate software maps which violate these restrictions may
not be present during competition, regardless of activation.
1. Reprogrammed ECU (via hardware and/or software) may be used
in the standard housing.
2. Supplementary (“Piggyback”) ECU may be used subject to the
following restrictions:
a. Connects between the standard ECU/PCM and its wiring harness
only.
b. Must be plug-compatible with the standard ECU/PCM (no splices

page 102 where I think SOB is referencing:

3. As utilized only on engines originally equipped with forced induction,
induction charge heat exchangers (known as “intercoolers” or
“charge air coolers (CACs)”) are unrestricted in size and configuration.
Air-to-air CACs and radiators for air-to-liquid CACs must be
cooled only by the atmosphere, except for standard parts. Body
panels, fascias, or structural members may not be cut or altered
to facilitate CAC installation.

[snaponbob]

If one of you SCCA racers would be so kind as to reproduce here the portion of their rulebook which addresses this, I'd be most appreciative.  I want to know the exact "letter of the law" before I proceed with this installation variation.

You asked for it, you got it !!!!!!!!

15.10.C.3
3. As utilized only on engines originally equipped with forced induction, induction charge heat exchangers (known as “intercoolers” or
“charge air coolers (CACs)”) are unrestricted in size and configuration. Air-to-air CACs and radiators for air-to-liquid CACs must be
cooled only by the atmosphere, except for standard parts. Body panels, fascias, or structural members may not be cut or altered
to facilitate CAC installation.

edit: As I was typing, Critter posted. Page 102 is correct. Josh may be onto something, but his idea may fall into the area of intent vs letter of the rule. And so, just got off the phone with Topeka - heat gun violates "altered to facilitate CAC installation".

[Bill Hahn Jr]

Thank you gents!

So, it would appear the key word here is "altered".  Unfortunately, this would appear to rule out JoshMcMadMac's suggestion, although a good one it was.  So, it's all going to come down to the interpretation of "altered", for the definition of the word "cut" is pretty cut and dried, if you'll pardon the bad pun (by the way, are there any good puns?).

On the plus side, I believe I now know exactly what to do to effect an SCCA-legal installation.  I'll keep you folks posted as I examine this in more detail!

[reedred]

Bill, would you mind emailing me your installation instructions as well?  I won't be autocrossing, but if the dealer doesn't replace my intercooler under warranty when I take it in Saturday I'll be looking to go aftermarket.  Same user name at gmail.com.  Thanks!

[Bill Hahn Jr]

Bill, would you mind emailing me your installation instructions as well?  I won't be autocrossing, but if the dealer doesn't replace my intercooler under warranty when I take it in Saturday I'll be looking to go aftermarket.  Same user name at gmail.com.  Thanks!

Email sent.  Thanks!

[shabby]

Body panels, fascias, or structural members may not be cut or altered
to facilitate CAC installation.

Lets looks at this another way, is the plastic shroud around the intercooler/radiator a body panel(metal), fascia(front bumper) or structural member(those two metal rods holding up the bumper?)? I would say no since its just there to direct air.

[snaponbob]

Lets looks at this another way, is the plastic shroud around the intercooler/radiator a body panel(metal), fascia(front bumper) or structural member(those two metal rods holding up the bumper?)? I would say no since its just there to direct air.

The answer is

Body panels, fascias, or structural members may not be cut or altered to facilitate CAC installation.

[cdflint]

Bill -
For your intercooler, was there any issues with the fit on the front area (front bumper side)or is the issue of cutting, behind the IC's black plastic undercover?

My 430 front bumper is tight but has a little room to work with but I wasn't sure if your IC expands too much forward?

Thanks
Charles

[LatinVenom]

I am with shabby and my engineering back ground when you say structural member you certainly are not refering to the foam pieces.
Those pieces are not structural in nature but rather serve a completely diferent purpose.

[shabby]

If the rules said no alterations of any surroundings to fit an intercooler or specifically mentioned plastic shrouding then modifying the shroud would be a no-no, but they don't so i don't see any problem trimming it to fit a hahn ic.

[elff]

I agree with shabby and LV

The area that needs to be modified is none of the following
Body panels, fascias, or structural members.

[snaponbob]

If you were to run that by the SCCA I am quite sure they would not see it that way. Again, if does not say you CAN, you CAN'T.

Don't get me wrong. I think there are a lot of rules that are nearly senseless. But I have been playing ball with SCCA for a long time, tilted windmills on issues like these, and they will not buy this argument. People are not empowered to use their own conclusions to "work around" the rules. In this case, bumper systems can not be modified. Serious. If an intercooler will not fit without modifications, its installation bumps it to SSM or Prepared class. Don't believe it? Write a letter to the SEB and ask for clarification.