Topic: Exhaust Manifold from Turbo thread

[elff]

The gt2871 that DDM sells uses the OEM LNF exhaust side and retains the twin scroll capabilities, however due to the antiquated gt2871 architecture is still has more lag than the 450hp capable EFR 6758.

Is that compared to a WR3 or ZFR or an EFR with a non LNF stock exhaust manifold?
Do you have HPT logs to show when the WR3 is at full boost?
Just curious as the lag on the 2871 is not much worse than the K04 and people make the same statements on the full EFR.


Is this the manifold that has failed?


Or this one

[LatinVenom]

Elff he is saying the last one you show, however I spoke directly with the manufacturer and he said ONLY one manifold had failed. .
The 1st one in the picture is the WERKS inhouse made
Dave I know that the T4 housing will not fit, I mentioned it because that housing is the one for the twin scroll.
So I thought that the ZZP and in your case WR2 and WR3 you had to change the housing in order to bolt on to the OEM manifold.
However you are saying that although you all went through the trouble of changing the housing, you all left them as T25's.
This to me makes no sense since the price of a T25 EFR-6758 is if you do some shopping less is than $1500.00.
Add one of the above manifolds and you end up with better flow and no alterations to the EFR turbo.
Great to know about the GT2871, stay tune folks.

[werks]

Elff he is saying the last one you show, however I spoke directly with the manufacturer and he said ONLY one manifold had failed. .
The 1st one in the picture is the WERKS inhouse made
Dave I know that the T4 housing will not fit, I mentioned it because that housing is the one for the twin scroll.
So I thought that the ZZP and in your case WR2 and WR3 you had to change the housing in order to bolt on to the OEM manifold.
However you are saying that although you all went through the trouble of changing the housing, you all left them as T25's.
This to me makes no sense since the price of a T25 EFR-6758 is if you do some shopping less than $1500.00.
Add one of the above manifolds and you end up with better flow and no alterations to the EFR turbo.
Great to know about the GT2871, stay tune folks.

Yes it was the second design that we had a lot of issues with.  Of course they are going to say they never had any failures.  We went through 2 manifolds alone on Ziegler's World Challenge Solstice!

Our WR-2 and WR-3 exhaust housings are not a T25 based, they are a non twin scroll OEM LNF design to bolt on to the OEM manifold.  Twin scroll is just not cost effective enough for our low volume sales to support,

[elff]

Thats an interesting bit of information.
I wonder if one of those failures preceded a new V8 build

So what RPM is the WR3 at full boost?
Anyone know what RPM the ZFR is at full boost?

[SKY888]

Yes it was the second design that we had a lot of issues with.  Of course they are going to say they never had any failures.  We went through 2 manifolds alone on Ziegler's World Challenge Solstice!

yes, Dave is correct.    I also know a couple of people with skys that had cracked manifold  as well.  I won't even mention their usernames.   They can chime in, if they are comfortable with it.....

One is a friend of mine on FB.......

I'm glad WERKS stopped selling those manifolds..........since it will just promote a negative effect on their company



That's why when forum members asked me if they should buy that manifold when they first saw them on forums, I always tell them ....NO!

it looks nice and shiny, but the stainless steel they used is cheapo!!!   Plus no brackets that will support the bigger turbo.
That's why I believe everybody who bought that manifold had headaches due to cracks

I prefer using a 321 stainless steel for manifold build.  They are very expensive, but they're great quality and meant for headers/manifold.

lesson here?    don't believe the hype that other forum members promote.......

[L-N-Fn]

Could you post picture Dave?

[werks]

Could you post picture Dave?

We will be releasing it in our vendor section within the next week or 2 so subscribe to our vendor section and u will see the official release, thanks.

[elff]

And understand I am not trying to throw Gmtech who came up with the design of the Stainless headers manifold

Aaa why not. He doesn't hesitate to do it

I can have an EFR in my hand in a day. It's a REAL turbo, not a cobbled together, poorly designed, and just a bad idea turbo.

At least this is multiple confirmed factual failures
Whats cobbled together now?
 

[elff]

Dave@werks
The above is in no way directed at you or your products.  I agree with Sky888.
Just wanted to point out some irony.
People in glass houses should not throw stones

[SKY888]

just get a DDM or WERKS turbo kit that will simply bolt on to the stock exhaust manifold.

then call it a day! 


the cast iron manifold of the LNF is built like a tank, and will not be easily susceptible to cracking like stainless steel     
Plus I believe the stock exhaust manifold can take 500hp and not cause any restrictions.

[SKY888]

gmtech.....you are the biggest cry baby ever.


you're too old to be a cry baby.......so pls stop 

you want honesty.....that's honesty

[LatinVenom]

OK Dave you are saying your WR2 and WR3 are dual ports to match the LNF design and bolt pattern but the turbo is a single scroll.
If the above is not correct, then all you do is match the opening with a single hole and then match the bolt pattern.
Which one is it?.
I am assuming the ZZP is the same design as yours.
Hope you will be posting some dyno numbers to see how they really compare to the EFR-6758 with the T25 manifolds.

[werks]

OK Dave you are saying your WR2 and WR3 are dual ports to match the LNF design and bolt pattern but the turbo is a single scroll.
If the above is not correct, then all you do is match the opening with a single hole and then match the bolt pattern.
Which one is it?.
I am assuming the ZZP is the same design as yours.
Hope you will be posting some dyno numbers to see how they really compare to the EFR-6758 with the T25 manifolds.

LV - Our bolt on WR-2 (6258) and WR-3 (6758) and EFR is a single inlet port non twin scroll, similar to ZZP, works great!

I will post up some dyno results this week in our vendor section, we have about 4 or 5 units out there in the field now.

[SKY888]

We were using the Stainless headers manifold that Gmtech switched to but unfortunately every one had massive failures so we stopped selling them.

Yes it was the second design that we had a lot of issues with.  Of course they are going to say they never had any failures.  We went through 2 manifolds alone on Ziegler's World Challenge Solstice

if WERKS don't want to sell them anymore.............and you still want to buy it.   Then buy it directly from the company who manufactures them.   That simple.

so if the manifold cracks, there's only one person to blame.  YOU

[Flaxenfilly23]

I don't often get on this forum, I tend to stick more to facebook pages and just lurk on the forums when I'm feeling particularly bored. This was the first thread that I happened to click on and it has been an entertaining read if nothing else. I'm not here to get into this argument but I do have a couple things to add in GMT's defense (and no, before anyone insinuates it, he did NOT ask me to get on here, or even tell me this thread was going on).

I personally own his past EFR 6758, tubular manifold, 5th injector, etc. - basically everything but the engine which he sold to a race team. It did not fail. It runs like a $2 whore catching sight of a millionaire. I have NO complaints about anything tuning related, help related, parts related, etc. He has been a TREMENDOUS help to my boyfriend and I in a lot of different situations. No, I am not his little puppy. No, he did not ask me to come to his defense. Can he be brash (maybe sometimes a bit too much)- sure. Have him and I had our disagreements - you bet, but if his shit is broke I need to go take another look at my car and figure out why the hell it is running so good with such shitty parts on it!

[LatinVenom]

I think and invitation to the manufacturer of the manifold should be done, this way he can post what has happened.

[blackbirdracing]

Absolute best ecotec efr turbo manifold

[elff]

I don't often get on this forum, I tend to stick more to facebook pages and just lurk on the forums when I'm feeling particularly bored. This was the first thread that I happened to click on and it has been an entertaining read if nothing else. I'm not here to get into this argument but I do have a couple things to add in GMT's defense (and no, before anyone insinuates it, he did NOT ask me to get on here, or even tell me this thread was going on).

I personally own his past EFR 6758, tubular manifold, 5th injector, etc. - basically everything but the engine which he sold to a race team. It did not fail. It runs like a $2 whore catching sight of a millionaire. I have NO complaints about anything tuning related, help related, parts related, etc. He has been a TREMENDOUS help to my boyfriend and I in a lot of different situations. No, I am not his little puppy. No, he did not ask me to come to his defense. Can he be brash (maybe sometimes a bit too much)- sure. Have him and I had our disagreements - you bet, but if his shit is broke I need to go take another look at my car and figure out why the hell it is running so good with such shitty parts on it!

Hmmmmm only 2 posts you just randomly clicked on this thread?
 
I'll have to take your word on that. I have no skin

GMT stated in a V8 thread that he bent 3 upgraded rods. 
Why, that occurred I am sure we will never know.
But
That is a failure on a car with an EFR setup, completely setup and tuned by him.   

Turns out it was not the manifold.  I, however, would recommend you keep an eye on that manifold as it is proven to fail.

I think and invitation to the manufacturer of the manifold should be done, this way he can post what has happened.

From what I have gathered, It just seems that the material, and wrapping the header are both contributing factors.  The latter, making the former more pronounced

[LatinVenom]

Elff,
T304 is use in a lot of headers out there.
Even cast iron manifolds will brake.
The point is not to make wild information or say this product is bad, unless you have the whole story.
There are at least 6 or more companies making Headers for the brand new Stingray using T304.
Most of the cars ours included are usually street driven, do anything different and you should be aware things under stress could brake.

[werks]

Lets get off this headers issue, Stainless Headers is a great company and they build beautiful products!

With that said - LV - You are not comparing apples to apples here, a T304 stainless N/A long tube header does not see anywhere near the exhaust temps that the LNF cylinder head outputs, hence they will last for years on an N/A engine.  We run LNFs extremely lean (for forced induction) with IAT temps approaching the 2000 degree range so it is enough to stress out even the best of Tubular 304, 321 and Inconel manifolds.

From our 20 year experience of being a mechanic on a 2 time SCCA Pro Rally Open Class Championship winning team and setting up NASA TTB and SCCA T2 Championship winning LNFs over the past 5 years and winning the SCCA T2 National Championship this year in a C5 Z06 we have determined the best long term solution for an LNF turbo manifold is cast stainless steel unit which is why we have invested in developing a new bolt on cast stainless steel manifold that we will be releasing in the next week or so.

Elff,
T304 is use in a lot of headers out there.
Even cast iron manifolds will brake.
The point is not to make wild information or say this product is bad, unless you have the whole story.
There are at least 6 or more companies making Headers for the brand new Stingray using T304.
Most of the cars ours included are usually street driven, do anything different and you should be aware things under stress could brake.

[blackbirdracing]

True, but I will add that the LNF produces a lot of heat out the exhaust due to being a turbo DI car. 

So take that heat, coupled with guys who keep their foot it for long period of time, more than drag racing times, add in a heavier than stock turbo, it makes for a lot of stress on tubular headers.

Corvette isn't even in same boat. It doesn't have a turbo hanging on those headers.

[blackbirdracing]

Perhaps mild steel would support more weight but that has its draw backs as well.

Temp gradients, differential expansion, and best cycling all fatigue the metal.

[elff]

Some pertinent information

My tuner has tuned a ZFR on a Cobalt with E47 and has tuned my car.
The ZFR spools to max boost 100RPM quicker.

I am at max normally at 3000 rpms
So that would put the ZFR at 2900 rpms

In comparison, I think it is accepted that the KO4 is at max boost at 2500

In the above, the ZFR [On the cobalt] holds power longer than the 2871.
I will ask what the lbs/min MAF flow rate was at it's top end and post that up.

Werks, have you any Data for your new WR3? 

[LatinVenom]

You both have your points, and yes there is a lot of heat been generated, but then why there are not more exhaust pipes leaking and mufflers doing the same?.
I still feel the manufacturer should have a chance to have it say on this issue, specially since that is their core business.
Dave, I am glad your company is producing something different, hope it works great for you.

[blackbirdracing]

Chris from stainless will most likely answer about the manifolds over here...