Author Topic: Exhaust Manifold from Turbo thread  (Read 58708 times)

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Offline SKY888

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Re: Exhaust Manifold from Turbo thread
« Reply #25 on: October 29, 2013, 12:57:11 PM »
304 is the most cost-effective grade of nonmagnetic stainless steel for general applications such an exhaust.   I will not get a turbo manifold made out of it.


321 is one of the best choices for turbo manifolds due to its excellent resistance to fatigue and cracking at elevated temperatures.  A bit pricey tho


If you want the best of the best, have a custom made turbo manifold made out of INCONEL.    Just dont collapse if you find out about the price tho ;)
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Offline Flaxenfilly23

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Re: Exhaust Manifold from Turbo thread
« Reply #26 on: October 29, 2013, 01:37:54 PM »
True Elff, only 3 posts but a lot more time lurking. If I don't have something valuable to add I tend to stay quiet and learn. I will keep an eye on my manifold, but honestly I keep an eye on everything under my hood. Nothing is bulletproof and everything will break put under certain situations. I would like an exact number from Werks as to how many of these manifolds have failed if he is willing to provide that information. I think it would clear up a lot of this going back and forth and plus would e valuable to know for those who have, or are interested in buying, this manifold.

Offline LatinVenom

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Re: Exhaust Manifold from Turbo thread
« Reply #27 on: October 29, 2013, 02:20:48 PM »
Here is some information about the composition of this manifold.

Physical Properties
The density of 304 stainless steel, or the mass per unit volume, is .29 pounds per cubic inch or 8,060 kilograms per cubic meter. It has a specific heat, which measures heat absorption, of 503 Joules per kilogram kelvin. It has a melting point of 2,550 degrees Fahrenheit or 1,400 degrees Celsius.

Then compare against this document.

Turbocharger for an exhaust temperature of 1050°C

The turbocharger is also becoming more and more accepted in connection with the gasoline engine. The advanced charging technique will cause the percentage of turbocharged vehicles to steadily increase. The exhaust temperatures of future turbocharged gasoline engines will increase. The air ratio ? at the rated output point is currently about ?=0.75–0.85 since a portion of the fuel is used to cool the inside of the engine. If the air ratio is increased to a value between ?=0.9-1.0, then a potential fuel savings of up to 20% can be attained. However, this leads to an increase in the exhaust temperature of up to 1050°C/1992 F and places new demands on the turbocharger, among other things


This for the T321:

PHYSICAL PROPERTIES

Melting Point
Density  2550-2635° F
1398-1446° C

You also have this:
Why it might be chosen instead of 321

 Grade 310

The temperature of the operating environment is up to about 1100°C - too high for 321 or 321H.

Finally this:

The advantage and disadvantage of cast steel.

One of the advantages of cast steel is the design flexibility, the designer of the casting have the greatest freedom of design choices, especially the complex shape and hollow cross-section parts.

Cast steel has the metallurgy manufacturing flexibility and strongest variability, you can choose a different chemical composition and control, adapted to the various requirements of different projects. By different heat treatment choice in the larger context of the mechanical properties and performance, and good weldability and workability.

Cast steel is a kind of isotropic material and can be made into the overall structural strength steel castings, thereby improving the reliability of the project. Coupled with the design and weight the advantages of short delivery time, price and economy has a competitive advantage.

The weight range of steel castings is larger. Little weight can be only a few dozen grams of molten mold precision castings, and the weight of large steel castings up to several tons, dozens of tons or hundreds of tons.

Steel castings can be used for a variety of working conditions, and its mechanical properties superior to any other casting alloys, and a variety of high-alloy steel for special purposes. To withstand high tensile stress or dynamic load of components, it is important pressure vessel castings in low or high temperature by the large and important part load key parts, in principle, should give priority to steel castings.

However, the cast steel has comparatively bad shake-suction, wear resistance, mobility and the casting performance are compared bad with cast iron, moreover, the costs are higher than normal cast iron.

Therefore, for cast iron vs cast steel, they have their own advantages and disadvantages, you should choose it according to your application and their physical properties.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2013, 03:00:19 PM by LatinVenom »
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Offline SKY888

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Re: Exhaust Manifold from Turbo thread
« Reply #28 on: October 29, 2013, 02:36:57 PM »
Here is some information about the composition of this manifold.

Physical Properties
The density of 304 stainless steel

that's why its prone to cracking.  Plain and simple
And that's the reason, why the price is reasonable.  I believe  less than $1000.

this turbo manifold actually really look good!!!    but the material is in the low end.

if you buy 304 ss tubs, they are not that expensive.

You basically get what you paid for.





Since they already have the design, just ask If they can make you a 321 ss, the cost of products will be more.    But its less prone to cracking.


I will pay the extra for the 321......
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Offline SKY888

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Re: Exhaust Manifold from Turbo thread
« Reply #29 on: October 29, 2013, 02:41:17 PM »
and like what I previously posted:


304 is the most cost-effective grade of nonmagnetic stainless steel for general applications such an exhaust.   I will NOT get a turbo manifold made out of it.


321 is one of the best choices for turbo manifolds due to its excellent resistance to fatigue and cracking at elevated temperatures.  A bit pricey tho


If you want the best of the best, have a custom made turbo manifold made out of INCONEL.    Just dont collapse if you find out about the price tho ;)
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Offline SKY888

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Re: Exhaust Manifold from Turbo thread
« Reply #30 on: October 29, 2013, 02:43:27 PM »
and I'll request for MORE supports and brackets........so the weight of the bigger turbo will not put stress on the manifold
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Offline SKY888

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Re: Exhaust Manifold from Turbo thread
« Reply #31 on: October 29, 2013, 02:56:31 PM »
taken from burns stainless:

Exhaust gas temperatures (EGT) for many race applications can exceed 1400° F which is beyond the working temperature of mild steel and 304 stainless steel. At these temperatures, regular austenitic stainless steel grades such as 304 experience carbide precipitation and the resultant inter-granular corrosion (Figure 1 - SEM Photo of Intergranular Corrosion) can lead to header tube failures. In Figure 1, the scanning electron microscope (SEM) image of a stainless steel sample shows the progression of intergranular corrosion. To address this problem, stabilized grades such as 321 have been developed to alleviate carbide precipitation. 321, stabilized with titanium, is an excellent choice for most turbo applications due to the increased material strength at high temperatures. For systems with higher EGTs one should consider using Inconel. Another benefit of stainless steel is that it conducts less heat than mild steel helping to reduce heat under the hood, and direct more exhaust energy to the turbo. In most cases, 16g (0.065? wall thickness) makes excellent header tube material. 3/8? to 1/2? thick 304SS is fine for head flanges as the heat transfer to the head will minimize thermal loading.


figure 1

http://www.burnsstainless.com/images/technology/intergranular_corrosion-lg.jpg



nuff said....





.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2013, 02:59:39 PM by SKY888 »
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Offline SKY888

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Re: Exhaust Manifold from Turbo thread
« Reply #32 on: October 29, 2013, 03:03:02 PM »
LV, you should at least quote the source, where you copy and pasted your info.....
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Offline LatinVenom

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Re: Exhaust Manifold from Turbo thread
« Reply #33 on: October 29, 2013, 03:03:59 PM »
Antonio.
Actually there is one better.
You probably posted after I found this about 310 Stainless steel.
Go back and take a look.
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Offline SKY888

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Re: Exhaust Manifold from Turbo thread
« Reply #34 on: October 29, 2013, 03:05:26 PM »
Antonio.
Actually there is one better.
You probably posted after I found this about 310 Stainless steel.
Go back and take a look.


310 is also good, no doubt bro.

but if 321 fails, 310 will probably also fail.

If I have the extra money, I'll spend on INCONEL.......lol
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Offline LatinVenom

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Re: Exhaust Manifold from Turbo thread
« Reply #35 on: October 29, 2013, 03:06:54 PM »
One of the sources was Bog Warner.
The others were from different places, must of them were PDF's but said the same thing about the property of each material.
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Offline LatinVenom

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Re: Exhaust Manifold from Turbo thread
« Reply #36 on: October 29, 2013, 03:09:23 PM »
Antonio.
310 as you can see has higher temperature strengh than 321 so it is a better choice since the exhaust temperatures are at 1050C/1922F.
The 310 is above those temperatures at 1100C.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2013, 03:14:08 PM by LatinVenom »
Solstice GXP 2007.
Aggressive and fully loaded.
Mods: Magnaflow 2.5" exhaust, DDM Backbone & ProBeam,ZOK suspension,LV Kappa Front Chassis Brace, BTF Turbo Upgraded Wheel, Windristrictor, JPM Center console,arms,tulip,side doors,DDM Upgraded wheel tune.

Offline SKY888

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Re: Exhaust Manifold from Turbo thread
« Reply #37 on: October 29, 2013, 03:12:00 PM »
One of the sources was Bog Warner.
The others were from different places, must of them were PDF's but said the same thing about the property of each material.

I was once caugt by my english professor, copied something word by word..and I got in trouble...lol

that's why I learned from it....lol



Anyways, in all honesty, I'll reiterate what I already posted.

this manifold in question, looks really good, and should be able to flow air properly.

I was just being honest, about the materials used (304), which I dont prefer.   Ill use it for my exhaust, that's about it.

Pay more, and just ask for them to use 321 or 310, and also ask for more brackets/supports....and you should be good to go.   YOu'll be sleep better at night!  :)
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Offline elff

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Re: Exhaust Manifold from Turbo thread
« Reply #38 on: October 29, 2013, 03:12:38 PM »
What are the strength and temperature specs on the stock manifold?

Offline SKY888

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Re: Exhaust Manifold from Turbo thread
« Reply #39 on: October 29, 2013, 03:13:53 PM »
Antonio.
310 as you can see has higher temperature strengh than 321 so it is a better choice since the exhaust temperatures are at 1050C/1922F.
The 310 is above those temperatures at 1110C.

honestly, Im not familiar with 310 at all.
You can always ask that vendor to use 310, if you think it will be better.


I was just saying that 321 and 310 will probaby be a good choice.    But if you really want the best, INCONEL :)
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Offline SKY888

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Re: Exhaust Manifold from Turbo thread
« Reply #40 on: October 29, 2013, 03:15:53 PM »
What are the strength and temperature specs on the stock manifold?


its built like a tank!!! one of the pros.


CONS:  material is way heavier, compared to SS.   Race teams prefer light :)




just google Log type vs tubular manifolds........to see the advantages/disadvantages in regards to horsepower and stuff....

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Offline elff

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Re: Exhaust Manifold from Turbo thread
« Reply #41 on: October 29, 2013, 03:16:57 PM »
I prefer crossing the finish line

15th Place is better than break down

:D

Offline LatinVenom

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Re: Exhaust Manifold from Turbo thread
« Reply #42 on: October 29, 2013, 03:18:23 PM »
I honestly do not know, but is cast iron so we could look at the physical properties and see where it falls.
I know the new Buick LTG engine use on the ATS has a different composition exhaust manifold than our LNF.
Solstice GXP 2007.
Aggressive and fully loaded.
Mods: Magnaflow 2.5" exhaust, DDM Backbone & ProBeam,ZOK suspension,LV Kappa Front Chassis Brace, BTF Turbo Upgraded Wheel, Windristrictor, JPM Center console,arms,tulip,side doors,DDM Upgraded wheel tune.

Offline SKY888

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Re: Exhaust Manifold from Turbo thread
« Reply #43 on: October 29, 2013, 03:22:19 PM »
I prefer crossing the finish line

15th Place is better than break down

:D

its better to be late...than have a cracked manifold ;)
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Offline LatinVenom

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Re: Exhaust Manifold from Turbo thread
« Reply #44 on: October 29, 2013, 03:29:17 PM »
To bad the discussion went hay wired, but you have to admit it provided a lot of information with regards to exhaust manifolds and the use on our turbo charge engine.
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Offline elff

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Re: Exhaust Manifold from Turbo thread
« Reply #45 on: October 29, 2013, 03:39:22 PM »
I honestly do not know, but is cast iron so we could look at the physical properties and see where it falls.
I know the new Buick LTG engine use on the ATS has a different composition exhaust manifold than our LNF.

They also got a really nice looking heat shield for the Turbo vs. the ugly craptastic one we have on the LNF.
I know that's a minor point, but it just looks so much nicer.



Offline JoshMcMadMac

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Re: Exhaust Manifold from Turbo thread
« Reply #46 on: October 29, 2013, 04:21:02 PM »
I was just saying that 321 and 310 will probaby be a good choice.    But if you really want the best, INCONEL :)

Antonio, I love your passion and "persistence for learning"...but you have got to stop just regurgitating everything and take a little more time to actually understand things.  You run way to quickly with information you find or are told, and I worry that you will (or have) lose a lot of money on what someone, somewhere sells you as what you need.  321 is a great option, but not the end-all be-all you started off calling it.  "Cryo-treating" parts has its place, but can do more harm than good in some places too.  What brings me to saying this is that you have proclaimed "INCONEL" twice already in this thread, but do you even know what that means?  I think if you did, you would know enough to specify which type of Inconel as there are several.  Saying Inconel is a lot like saying just stainless steel.  I hope you do not take this the wrong way, I really mean it in a helpful way from seeing you post hundreds of times all over the message boards.  :)

Offline GXP_Matt

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Re: Exhaust Manifold from Turbo thread
« Reply #47 on: October 29, 2013, 04:26:16 PM »
What you're really looking for in a temp resistant stainless steel is a high nickel content, and that is what drives the cost up as well.  No need for Inconel, which is outrageously expensive, when you can use 1.4848 (it isn't a 300 series SS), which has high nickel content but is much cheaper than Inco.  Most turbos have Inco turbine wheels and those are good to 1000C.  Above that and you are looking at Mar-M 246 or 247. 

I would like to see a Full-Race exhaust manifold for the LNF.  I have never seen one of their manifolds fail and they are run on pretty much every time attack car in the world.  They're also really nice to look at with the no-filler robotic welds...
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Offline LatinVenom

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Re: Exhaust Manifold from Turbo thread
« Reply #48 on: October 29, 2013, 04:44:01 PM »
What about the 310 steel as my research indicated it can tolerate temperatures up to 1100C?.

I also went to their site but it does not mentioned what they use to build the manifolds.


Update:
I realized that 90% of the cars listed in this site are NOT OEM factory turbo engines.
The exhaust temperatures are for NA cars so not the same issues as our LNF or any other DI Turbo engine.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2013, 12:49:29 PM by LatinVenom »
Solstice GXP 2007.
Aggressive and fully loaded.
Mods: Magnaflow 2.5" exhaust, DDM Backbone & ProBeam,ZOK suspension,LV Kappa Front Chassis Brace, BTF Turbo Upgraded Wheel, Windristrictor, JPM Center console,arms,tulip,side doors,DDM Upgraded wheel tune.

Offline blackbirdracing

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Re: Exhaust Manifold from Turbo thread
« Reply #49 on: October 29, 2013, 05:22:02 PM »
What about cast manifolds like what treadstone sells?

They make one for the delta LNF...