Topic: LNF turbo build on an LE5

[Robotech]

Yes one of these again...though I'd like to think a bit different. I have searched and while there are a number of topics on this build, most don't deal with the questions I'm asking and are usually "what if" threads or "Hey I have a K04 turbo and what else do I need?" I have more than that and a fairly solid idea of what else I need.

For the record, this is for a 2007 Saturn Sky.

I am wanting to put the LNF K04 turbo on the LE5 motor.  I have been very fortunate to have access to a number of the parts necessary for the build and want to complete it.  So far, this is what I have:

• K04 Turbo
• All water lines going to and from the turbo
• All oil lines going to and from the turbo
• All mounting hardware for the turbo
• Stock Cat downpipe
• LNF exhaust manifold
• LNF water tube
• LNF intercooler 25 miles on it.
• LNF intercooler mounts
• LNF charge pipes (not sure if this will do any good)

From what I understand I would need the following:

• Cold air charge pipe from IC to TB with bung for MAF sensor (making the LNF cold air pipe I have useless)
• 42.5 or 60 lb injectors (I have determined I'd prefer to have the 60s so I have room to grow in the injectors)
• 2-bar or 3-bar MAP (prefer 3-bar in order to allow for growth but not sure if anyone pumps more than 14.7 lbs of boost into an LE5.)
• A tune (duh)
• Finally some clue as to how folks route the vac lines on the turbo in these kits and whether or not we can drop the oil pan without lifting the whole engine out of the car so I can drill the spot in the engine where the oil return line on the LNF is located since it's marked out. (Would love to find out that's a plug that can be pulled out but I don't have that kind of good luck.)

Target right now is about 235 whp because the clutch won't survive much past this. Next up would be a clutch upgrade followed by a boost controller and shoot for around 300 whp. After that, go with a bigger turbo, the Hahn high boost head kit, and aim for 380-400 whp. Obviously the IC will be upgraded along the way there too.

Also, I have an early build 2007 with the forged rods in the LE5. I'm told these particular blocks are good up to the 400 whp range and then you need to start doing internal work.

If you're wondering why I just didn't buy a kit, so far the grand total I have invested in this project is...$50. Would be nice to get the rest of the parts and make the most out of this opportunity.

[elff]

Downpipes are a big bottleneck for turbo's.   I'd suggest you get a higher flowing one and bolt that on at the time of installation.

[elff]

Also

You do not need to move the MAF to an IC pipe.   It can stay on the Intake.   You just want it somewhere where it gets a nice, and this is important, non turbulent flow of air.
That is sometimes recommended when you Vent to air using an External BOV vs an internal BPV. 
Even then, on our cars, it really does not make a difference.   I did that for a short period of time on mine and found that the GMPP intake actually got better MAF reading them having the MAF in the Driver Side IC Pipe.

[Robotech]

I know about the Cat bottleneck and, depending on my Smog situation with this car I just might do that, but I would like this car to pass the roller smog test. Damn CA smog issues.

Also

You do not need to move the MAF to an IC pipe.   It can stay on the Intake.   You just want it somewhere where it gets a nice, and this is important, non turbulent flow of air.
That is sometimes recommended when you Vent to air using an External BOV vs an internal BPV. 
Even then, on our cars, it really does not make a difference.   I did that for a short period of time on mine and found that the GMPP intake actually got better MAF reading them having the MAF in the Driver Side IC Pipe.

Interesting. See I have read a little on this and know for some having the "blow through" MAF (MAF on the cold pipe) is an upgrade but required different tuning because their stock MAF was a "suck through" setup like it is on the LNF Relines and GXPs.

I only wonder why then do the aftermarket turbo kits use the Blow through MAF setup? Is there something in the LE5's ECM that makes that a better location? Elf, is your setup a LE5 turbo setup? I'm just wondering if it was what you did for tuning with the "Suck through" setup.

[elff]

No
LNF

As long as you get a nice MAF reading, it's all about the tuning.
The location on the IC Pipe, IMHO, is done in an attempt to have the venting to air, not affect the reading of the MAF and in theory is supposed to keep it as non turbulent as possible.

I found that it did not matter as long as you have a good intake.  Having the MAF just behind the Air Element, like it is on a Stock LNF Kappa and on the GMPP LNF Intake and DDM LNF Intake works fine

[Robotech]

Well, that is where it is on the LE5 too...just our intake runs down the passenger side where your cold charge pipe is. LOL 

Now in the Cold Air charge pipe, there is a sensor too on the LNF...what is that sensor on your cars? I am assuming that's a temp sensor to get a reading of the incoming post-turbo air temp.  In the LE5, our air temp sensor and MAF sensor are one in the same. Again, I'm assuming since the LNF uses the same sensor that you get a temp reading pre-turbo and another post IC.

[elff]

It's 1 of the 2 MAP sensors
The other is on the intake manifold

[Robotech]

I think our LE5 conversions just swap out the single bar MAP in the intake for a 2 bar MAP...though I'd need that or a 3 Bar MAP also now that I think about it (rather would have the 3 bar...again...growth potential...oooh, or maybe find the stock MAP out of an LNF...they're what, a 2.5 or 2.75 bar MAP?)

[elff]

3 bar sensors are cheap, you might as well go with it from day 1.
Crate Engine Depot sells them

[Robotech]

That's my thinking but then I'm wondering if you can throw more than 14.7 lbs of boost at a stock LE5 bottom end.  3 may be overkill but it really comes down to, even if I built this thing completely out with forged everything, ARP studs, etc, will it ever see 28 lbs of boost?

[elff]

3 may not be needed, but the price is pretty much the same as a 2bar, and it's not like it matters if you don't use it's full potential.

[Robotech]

Very true. But it has me wondering if someone did the GMPP Stage 1 upgrade and had their old MAF laying around what they'd want for it. LOL

Blame the CA raised tree hugging culture for my desire to recycle old parts and my broke azz self for wanting to save a few bucks. LOL

[elff]

You leave me no room to debate with that last sentence

[Robotech]

LOL

Hey, trust me, far be it from me not to overbuild something. I had a 3800 V6 that could probably have tolerated 800+ hp for a reliable 500 hp street build. LOL Overkill in the extreme! But damn it if that engine didn't hold up to anything I threw at it!

[elff]

The engine in my Genesis Coupe could support 500HP with only a single turbo
But I am not going down that road with it. 

[Robotech]

ROFLOL...the other project car I have right now is a Veloster Turbo! LOL  I start with Superchargers and NA cars and now I'm up to my eyeballs in overgrown hairdryers! LOL

[elff]

The wife has an R-Spec Edition 2.0T Gen Coupe.  Pretty similar engine to that Veloster.   
We are fortunate and live in the same town as
Seoulful Racing

Jay is a pretty solid tuner.  Crazy thing is, he uses HP Tuners for the Hyundai's

[Robotech]

Yea the VT belongs to my girlfriend. Fun little car to work with.

[elff]

They are.  I have found that the Hyundai world has a subset similar to the VW world
Stance and Bags with stupid camber. 
I've seen some crazy Veloster's 

Keep your GF away from that.
 

[Jim]

Robotech,

I have the stock LNF MAP sensors if you need them. $20 shipped for both if you're interested.

Also - when it comes to tuning, I have a "loaner" HP Tuners setup that you could use. If you happen to be tuning a 2007 Solstice, you woulnd't even need to purchase any credits as it has the license for all 2007 model Solstices. Another forum member currently has the loaner setup at this time but it will be available in the near future.

[Robotech]

Probably should have mentioned this is a 2007 Sky (Edited the first post to reflect this).  Is the credit good for that car too or just the Solstice?  Thanks for the offer to use it and I'll probably take you up on it but it won't be until late August to early/mid September when I'll need it. (If you can't tell I like to prepare in advance.)

Hang on to those MAP sensors and give me some time to see if I need to rewire the MAP harness to use the LNF MAP in an LE5 (unless you already know this...which would be great!).  I'll pick them up from you in a couple weeks.

[Jim]

It's just for the Solstice - would be nice if it covered all 2007 Kappa's but it doesn't. For the Sky it would cost $100 for the 2 credits you would need to tune it which is still a great deal for a tune.

[Robotech]

No doubt, well worth the $100. Definitely good to know though so I can add it to the budget. LOL Do they have a base tune for a Turbo LE5 or am I doing this from scratch? LOL

[Jim]

There is a tune in the HP Tuners repository for a 2007 Sky (LE5) with the following mods: (forgive me for copying and pasting the long list)

2007 Saturn Sky- 2.4L LE5 engine
Engine – All factory internals and throttle body
TURBO- T3/T4 57 trim with .63 exhaust housing, 2.5” V-band outlet
Wastegate- Internal with 8psi spring
Manifold- Stainless Log
Intercooler- 3” thick core V-mounted in the nose with 2.5” diameter aluminum IC piping
MAF- Factory MAF used as blow through in a 2.5” diameter tube in the same location as stock. (welded on the GM aluminum MAF pad from Summit)
Downpipe- Catless 2.5” 304 stainless going into a full 3” magnaflow stainless exhaust
O2 sensors- Upstream narrow band O2 sensor only (no post cat sensor being used) plus NGK AFX wideband controller for tuning
Fuel- Premium (93 octane with 10% ethanol)
Injectors- ZZP Siemens 60 # for 2.4L LE5
MAP- ZZP GM 2-bar for LE5
Filter- The turbo has cone filter on the compressor housing, no intake
BOV- Located in a 2.5” SS tube and vented to atmosphere and is located pre-MAF (just after turbo outlet)
PCV system- The PCV hole in plastic intake manifold has been filled to eliminate oil in the Manifold from the cylinder head
VCBP- Valve cover breather port goes to catch can with a breather filter to atmosphere

[elff]

Jim
I'd have to hook up my HPT interface, but does the year cover both LNF and LE5?
I thought it was year and 1 engine.