Topic: Twincharged Solstice = Turbocharger + Supercharger

[TomatoSoup]

You ppl are all insane.  I don't know why I converse with you.

[Steelmesh]

That's all kinds of F'd up!

Unicorns don't have wings, Pegasus don't have horns.

Fast cars have wings, all cars have horns.

[Gentleman Jack]

Fast cars have wings, all cars have horns.

Best post steelmesh has ever made

[Gentleman Jack]

You ppl are all insane.  I don't know why I converse with you.

I miss you TS. When are you and Mrs. Soup going to come visit me?

[Sol Asylum]

I miss you TS. When are you and Mrs. Soup going to come visit me?

Is Mrs Soup's name O-scope?

[Sol Asylum]

Fast cars have wings, all cars have horns.

Do F1 or Indy cars have horns?  I have never heard them use them and you would think those guys would use them if they had them.

[Steelmesh]

Do F1 or Indy cars have horns?  I have never heard them use them and you would think those guys would use them if they had them.

Here is the notable Ted Horn with his Indy car:

[Gentleman Jack]

that sideways V8 logo is awesome!

[elff]

Someone needs to inflict pain on that Mustang owner.  That shit should be illegal!!!!

[Sol Asylum]

Someone needs to inflict pain on that Mustang owner.  That shit should be illegal!!!!

You mean more painful than having to look at that everyday?

[elff]

Yes
That is not enough.

[wspohn]

The timing chain is the weak link on all chain driven 2.0L engines.  I am not sure of there is an available aftermarket one that is stronger, but I was not aware of one for the LNF. 

AFAIK there is no set up to convert the timing chain to duplex (which never fail and re on all of my old British stuff, but hey, GM must have saved a couple of ounces and dollars going with simplex, right?)

For one thing, there may not be clearance in the timing case for wider sprockets.

[Steelmesh]

Supurbo Build Begins

Mega Cooling mods: biggest universal radiator that I could fit, Honda Accord tuner radiator (for HE lol), and a 19 row oil cooler.  Universal radiator would need two 3/8" alum pins (uses stock bottom rubber isolators) and a piece of angle aluminum across the top, if tolerances of these rads are close enough it won't be intensive to replace and reweld.  Big radiator fits after stock mounts were dropped significantly and canted forward (perfect for hood extractor). 

Stock Fan Fits after trimming, currently very early mockup stage:


Lightweight upper mount, captures the HE and Rad independently, both rads are free floating on rubber isolators (rad uses stock bottom rubber):


Build To Fit:


Receiver detail that captures the middle post on the Honda rad:


Oil cooler mount, more lightweight mounts. Also note that alum piece above the blued piece on the left is in the middle of fabrication, needed some triangulation there for 150 mph forces pushing on it, heeeyyyy:


Steel used exclusively for the bottom rad/he mounts for strength and maybe take a hit better than Al.


I'll be running a thermostatic valve for the oil cooler, no issue with over cooling the oil:




Edit: spelling, grammar

[DeepBlueGXP]

Cool, very nice tig welds.  Thanks for the update

[SKY888]

if you really wana twin charge.............you can start with the stock supercharged first. 


then you can add a big turbo later on.
You can install the big turbo inside the cramped engine bay................or you can rear mount the big turbo and install it by the end of your exhaust.

Some stock supercharged balts..........did that rear mount turbo with success.   Ive ridden one......and its not bad at all.

My only suggestion is, if you'll do the rear mount turbo is get a very reliable oil scavenger pump such as turbowerx.   That will ensure that your rear mounted turbo gets oil reliably.


good luck

[Steelmesh]

if you really wana twin charge.............you can start with the stock supercharged first. 


then you can add a big turbo later on.
You can install the big turbo inside the cramped engine bay................or you can rear mount the big turbo and install it by the end of your exhaust.

Some stock supercharged balts..........did that rear mount turbo with success.   Ive ridden one......and its not bad at all.

My only suggestion is, if you'll do the rear mount turbo is get a very reliable oil scavenger pump such as turbowerx.   That will ensure that your rear mounted turbo gets oil reliably.


good luck

Thanks for the insights. Current plan is to start with the existing fully functional t3/t4 turbocharger setup (Precision 5557) and blow into the M62 LSJ supercharger.  I'll also be installing a SC bypass using another throttle body, so the turbo can blow straight into the intake.  I'll listen in on the CAN bus engine signals and use a micro controller to trigger the bypass (custom lookup tables and strategies).   If this setup actually performs, I'll be upgrading to something like a 6262 turbo.

[Dave@DDMworks]

On all of the twincharged Atom's we have done we used the internal bypass on the M62 instead of doing a custom throttle body setup. It is much easier and simpler to do this and you are mainly just trying to equalize the pressure delta across rotors of the supercharger. Once you have no pressure delta across the rotors, the "work" being done by the supercharger substantially decreases and in our testing was good for around 30hp. To control our setup we just use a 2nd boost controller that references off of the intake feeding the supercharger, once that incoming air becomes pressurized higher than the set point, the "wastegate" bypass on the supercharger starts to open. That provided a nice smooth drivable transition once it was setup and controlling everything correctly. We have done a bunch of these twincharged Atom's now, if you have any direct questions, feel free to shoot an email to me - Dave@ddmworks.com. Hope that helps.

[Steelmesh]

On all of the twincharged Atom's we have done we used the internal bypass on the M62 instead of doing a custom throttle body setup. It is much easier and simpler to do this and you are mainly just trying to equalize the pressure delta across rotors of the supercharger. Once you have no pressure delta across the rotors, the "work" being done by the supercharger substantially decreases and in our testing was good for around 30hp. To control our setup we just use a 2nd boost controller that references off of the intake feeding the supercharger, once that incoming air becomes pressurized higher than the set point, the "wastegate" bypass on the supercharger starts to open. That provided a nice smooth drivable transition once it was setup and controlling everything correctly. We have done a bunch of these twincharged Atom's now, if you have any direct questions, feel free to shoot an email to me - Dave@ddmworks.com. Hope that helps.

That sounds like a straightforward simple/analog method of bypass control, maybe I'll start with that to get the car rolling.  I need to get the engine assembled and in the car so I can start mocking up the SC setup; as you can imagine the LSJ M62 is far from a bolt-on part going into a Kappa car.  Some of the major mods to the SC will dictate if the stock bypass setup will available.

It is pretty tight under there:

[elff]

AFAIK there is no set up to convert the timing chain to duplex (which never fail and re on all of my old British stuff, but hey, GM must have saved a couple of ounces and dollars going with simplex, right?)

For one thing, there may not be clearance in the timing case for wider sprockets.

I am very happy I have a timing Belt, vs chain now.
and the 1Jz and 2JZ engines have belts.  That, combined with them being straight sixes, might be why they can reliably produce such insane HP

[wspohn]

I am very happy I have a timing Belt, vs chain now.
and the 1Jz and 2JZ engines have belts.  That, combined with them being straight sixes, might be why they can reliably produce such insane HP

Have we seen many timing chain issues with the stock single width chains? I know we have seen issues with the timing chain guides, and apparently the factory managed to get a bunch of chains with non-hardened rollers that they installed in cars and had to warranty later, but I haven't seen much about actual chain breakage.

If anyone ever has a chin out, the easy way to check wear is to hold the chain out and measure the amount of 'droop', which is the cumulative wear at all the rollers and compare it to a new chain. If the droop is significant, stick the new chain in, otherwise many chains outlast the engines they are installed in.

I much prefer chains to belts - the belts can more easily jump a tooth and when they do let go finally and break on an interference engine the damage will be expensive.  Chains don't jump a tooth unless there is extreme wear or something goes badly wrong with the tensioning system.

I prefer a duplex chain - my British sports cars and my S54 BMW engine all have that, but there is a good long history of reliability even on the single width chains, starting back at the Lotus Cortina (which happens to have been a maintenance horror show, with water pump changes requiring removal of head and timing case, but that's neither here nor there as far as chain longevity is concerned).

[Steelmesh]

This old spring compressor tool barely worked, was adjusted to the limit and was actually contacting the edge of the valve cover mating surface, this is after "tuning" in the copper adapter length but needed to add 2 washers.  The spring pockets are pretty deep.  This is pretty shady but I was in git-r-done mode so I got her done;  for installation I'm going to use the benchtop compressor at work especially since they will be higher load springs.





Soda blasting in progress:





Knife edging intake ports in progress:

[Steelmesh]

Following up on the original LE5 2.4L that was running when I took everything apart.  I was complaining of low oil pressure, 15 psi hot idle and ~40 psi at 6,000 rpm.  Looks like all the bearings are worn out on this very abused 90k LE5 (hard to see, but main clearance about 0.0030" and rod clearance about 0.0046".  The bearings do not look bad visually. The 2006 crankshaft looks usable dimensionally, just need to spotcheck for cracks and I'll run it. Also, be sure to look at Cylinder 3.

Raw Measurements:


Specification
Connecting Rod Bearing Clearance: 0.0011-0.0027"
Main Bearing Clearance: 0.0012-0.0026"
Piston Cylinder Clearance: ????

Here is Piston 3 from that extremely worn out bore:

Coating wore off, but the micrometer doesn't show anything unusual compared to the other piston diameters


Looks like it was rocking, I couldn't hear it over the ticker tape parade marching band of pissed off lifters on startup...but when warm I didn't notice it over the exhaust at least:




Any ideas what would cause just one cylinder to wear out significantly?  Bad injector washing the walls in this cylinder?


 

[Steelmesh]

Turbo Oil Drain 2.4 LE5 drill tap 1/2" NPT with 11/16" drill. I went with 12AN hose:





Ported out, the drill was going to break my wrist:



I used a ICT Billet AN to NPT adapter fitting ICB-AN816-12-08A:

[TomatoSoup]

Any ideas what would cause just one cylinder to wear out significantly?  Bad injector washing the walls in this cylinder?

The ring gap looks HUGE in that one photo.  Is there an edge piece snapped off?  In any case I would suggest that the ring could compress too much and let the piston touch the cylinder wall (maybe?).

[Sol Asylum]

What did that cylinder bore look like?  Stuck ring?  Was the piston hitting the flame ring on the head gasket?  Check and make sure the con rod isn't bent.