Topic: Does this look "normal" (timing chain)?

[2kwk4u]

Not sure the nylon timing chain guide for the tensioner should be up in contact with the head like it is in this picture (attachment 1).  Looks out of place to me...

Also not sure I should have this slack at rest (attachment 2).

These are serious questions.  Please advise

Also, Merry Christmas!

P.S. if I attach pics I took with my phone, the orientation is FUBAR unless you click "view full size"   

[2kwk4u]

Answering my own question... 

She be fooked.

I shouldn't be able to slide that nylon guide BACK DOWN the chain (see attached).

So I'll order a new timing set, timing cover gasket, and probably balance shaft chain set while I'm in there.  Anything else I should consider while I have her open?  I just bought a new valve cover gasket the other day the first time I pulled the valve cover to try and figure out what's up with my P0017.  Pretty sure I've found the cause for that.  Too bad I already wasted 60 bucks on a new exhaust cam phaser and exhaust cam position sensor

[elff]

Welcome to the weak point of most 2.0L engines.
Hopefully you caught this before pistons started to hit valves.

[2kwk4u]

Welcome to the weak point of most 2.0L engines.
Hopefully you caught this before pistons started to hit valves.

It was still running STRONG (for my mods, at least) before I discovered this.  Rockers all look unharmed.  Might pull the plugs and throw a borescope in there just in case while I’m waiting for the new parts to arrive.

[Critterman]

When was the water pump replaced?  Oil pump is in there as well.

[kwtoxman]

I'd get this and do it while in there.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Timing-Chain-Upper-Guide-Bolt-FIX-GM-Saab-Saturn-Ecotec-2-0-2-2-2-4L/153210121039

Good luck and hope all is good.

[Dave@DDMworks]

I'd get this and do it while in there.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Timing-Chain-Upper-Guide-Bolt-FIX-GM-Saab-Saturn-Ecotec-2-0-2-2-2-4L/153210121039

Good luck and hope all is good.

There are also these available and work very well -

https://www.amazon.com/Dorman-917-954-Timing-Chain-Guide/dp/B01N1151WH

[2kwk4u]

When was the water pump replaced?  Oil pump is in there as well.

Water pump has +/- 30K miles on it.  I’ll prob drop the pan and take a look at the pump pickup screen while I’m at it.  Really depends on how much of that busted guide (or guides) I can account for. 

Think I need to worry about that debris getting jammed up in a crank journal or piston squirter?

[2kwk4u]

I'd get this and do it while in there.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Timing-Chain-Upper-Guide-Bolt-FIX-GM-Saab-Saturn-Ecotec-2-0-2-2-2-4L/153210121039

Good luck and hope all is good.

I’m not trying to be a smartass... what problem does this solve? 

Edit:  OK.  Now I get it   I'm lucky I was able to get this bastard out.  What a dumb design and OBVIOUS improvement!

[2kwk4u]

There are also these available and work very well -

https://www.amazon.com/Dorman-917-954-Timing-Chain-Guide/dp/B01N1151WH

I’ve regretted every Dorman brand car part I’ve ever purchased.  No lie

[2kwk4u]

In the “exploratory surgery” phase now.  The crappy last pic was taken with my crap borescope.  It’s looking at the bottom of the oil pan (inserted through the drain plug hole). The blurry black item is what I assume to be a sizable chunk of the fixed timing chain guide.

 The dilemma is:  do I go through the ass pain of pulling the motor to get that oil pan off, or assume either (1) it’s safe since it’s below the windage tray and way too big to get through the oil pump pickup screen; or (2) it doesn’t matter, since based on all the metal in that oil filter this motor is a goner no matter what?

Likely there’s other bits of plastic in the pan.  I did NOT find any in the filter, though.  Wonder if the rest is clogging my piston cooling squirters or crank journals 

Am I being paranoid?  I welcome your thoughts...

[wspohn]

Damn!

I hate single timing chains.  A Duplex chain will last just about forever without acquiring enough slop to cause issues. That doesn't affect the tensioners of course - that is a matter of design and materials. All the old engines use steel with bonded hard rubber facings - no plastic bits that can age and break.

One of the first 'modern' DOHC engines that used a single width chain was the Ford twin cam, used in all sorts of Lotus and Ford vehicles, and chain rattle was the first thing you had to listen for when buying a used car with that engine.

We once took a brand new single chain for a Ford and compared it to an 80,000 mile used duplex chain out of a Jag engine. The way you gauge wear is to hold the chains, sideways and see how much the accumulated wear in the 'pins' allows the chain to droop. The new single chain drooped more out of the box than the duplex chain with mileage on it did.

[elff]

It was still running STRONG (for my mods, at least) before I discovered this.  Rockers all look unharmed.  Might pull the plugs and throw a borescope in there just in case while I’m waiting for the new parts to arrive.

You do realize that everything that breaks, was running fine the day before it broke, right?

[Sol Asylum]

You do realize that everything that breaks, was running fine the day before it broke, right?

Was your car running fine before it took a shit?

[2kwk4u]

You do realize that everything that breaks, was running fine the day before it broke, right?

Yeah, but how many run even BETTER AFTER it breaks?  I'm referring to after the first time I pulled the valve cover off b/c I was seeing P0017.  I then went nuts chasing down what I assumed were electrical problems, and dismantled a fair amount of crap chasing down the whole length of both battery cables.  When I put it back together, I was seeing 20+ PSI of boost.  Numbers I hadn't seen in quite some time.  I probably had a boost leak before that. 

Regardless, it was running strong on my test drive AFTER that, even though it popped P0017 (and pending P0016) still.  That's what made me pull the valve cover off again for another look. 

[Sly Bob]

And it's a good thing you DID pull the cover. If you didn[t it could have gotten nasty fast.

[2kwk4u]

Back together and fired up this evening, no problem.  Purrs like a kitty.  I just need to stop for another gallon of dex tomorrow, throw the hood and bumper cover back on and see if I didn't/don't trash the whole motor anyway sometime later this week

[Critterman]

I was just going to ask you about this, now I don't have to, glad everything is back together.

[2kwk4u]

Now to remember how to burp the cooling system...  no heat = bubble in the heater core

[Critterman]

Does this help:

http://www.kappaperformance.com/forum/index.php/topic,4157.msg82429.html#msg82429

[2kwk4u]

Actually I filled according to DDM’s video from years ago.  This is the first time I’ve experienced issues.  To address my issues, I went with a variation on this method:  https://www.skyroadster.com/forums/f5/definitive-engine-coolant-bleed-procedure-without-vacuum-fill-tooling-49953/

But I put a vacuum on the bleeder port to help out.  Done for the night, though.  I should be all set, but don’t particularly feel like test driving in a rainstorm at 9PM - ESPECIALLY considering I don’t know the condition of the rest of this motor...