Topic: Anyone up for independant testing of different tunes?

[GXPinKC]

Thanks Dave @ DDMworks for the offer.  I think that would be great.  As Tierra del Sol mentions in his post, we do not auto X, drag race or race professionally, and most who have added performance Tunes to their Kappa's do not as well.  Agreed, there are some who do, but I would say it is a rather low percentage.  I would be most interested in low end Torque, as well as a powerband that provided punch along the curve.  I enjoy the rumble in all gears and since I have a manual transmission, I love to feel the torque in in all the gears, even in 5Th.  But, it must be safe for the overall longevity of the vehicle.  Anyway, as you probably know by now, we finally ordered the 6 T-Bolt Clamps from you the other day, and I have an independent mechanic ready to put them on.  Thanks for offering these to Kappa owners.  Again, thanks for coming forward.  You would be perfect to go forward with this project!
Ron T.

[Gentleman Jack]

Does anyone have a preference on the type of dyno we would want to use for this project?  There are many types that all give their own readings, the question is, which one to use.  Part of that will be defined by what is available, but I thought I would get a base line for what we would like to see.  The most important part is to use the same machine for all phases of the test, and interpret the info accordingly. 

Gentleman Jack

[Gentleman Jack]

Two dyno shops in San Diego that I have found at this point.  Range between 80 and 115 per dyno run.  I did not get in to specifics with them and I don't know much about the shops.  Idea is still alive and I continue to work towards it.  Any help is appreciated.

[tazz]

Yikes per run so if you had three runs it could cost over $300.
Hear in KS I think MC racing in Overland Park charges less than $150 for 3 dyno pulls or can charge by the hour which would still buy you around 2hrs IIRC. 
GXPinKC might have a better idea of the current cost of MC racing I'm just going off what I remember 4yrs ago.

[Frank I]

After some of our recent testing and tuning, and seeing some other dyno charts, I am sure we would be happy to offer one of our LNF tunes for this kind of testing. Although it should be decided in advance, what we are tuning for, max pressure, max power, max torque, max power under the curve, max torque under the curve, etc. Let me know!


Dave
www.DDMWorks.com

DDM:

I think all the dyno tests should be done on your new dyno (when it is up and running).  I know you would have your tune entered with the others but your trustworthy and I know all the forum members would have full faith and trust in you recording every vendors tune in an honest fashion.

I vote for DDM to run the test, come on other forum members chime in and cast your vote!!!!   

Frank I

[GXPinKC]

DDM:

I think all the dyno tests should be done on your new dyno (when it is up and running).  I know you would have your tune entered with the others but your trustworthy and I know all the forum members would have full faith and trust in you recording every vendors tune in an honest fashion.

I vote for DDM to run the test, come on other forum members chime in and cast your vote!!!!  

Frank I

I agree Frank I.  I believe that DDMWorks has earned the right to take on this task.  In review, Carol and I missed the 2008 Meet in Las Vegas so cannot comment on that one.  But we were at the 1st National Solstice Meet held in Kansas City, Missouri the summer of 2006 and organized and run by our own Kathy Gee.  You were the Key Note speaker at that event, and that is where we first met.  I remember meeting you at the meet and asking you some questions.  I believe DDMWorks was at that meet, someone correct me if I am wrong.  It was a long time ago and my memory is not what it used to be.

Also, DDMWorks was at the 2nd Annual North American Solstice Meet 2007 in Nashville, Tennessee.

Not done yet...The Regional Meet in Lexington, Kentucky 2008, yep, saw them there as well.

The Colorado 2009 North American Solstice Sky Meet held in Denver, Colorado.  They installed our DDMWorks ProBeam and Race Backbone, also got the Martin Tune at that meet.

They have earned the honor and right to accept this challenge.  Accept my vote.  Please carry on with the discussion.

Ron

[Gentleman Jack]

Hey all,
Thanks for keeping this alive.  I hesitate to nominate DDMWorks for two reasons:
1/ I do not know them at all and would not want to nominate them if they were not interested
2/ I wonder if the other vendors of tunes would then quesiton the results.  

This in not meant to say that I do not trust DDM, I don't even know them.  I just want to keep this experiment as clean as possible so that the information created is a usefull as it can be to others.  
What little experience I have with Dave from DDM is as follows:
1. he was the first to volunteer a tune for the experiment
2. he replied at the speed of light when I PM'd him about some brake set ups for my car and actually recommended I spend LESS money that what I was thinking of.

So, what I can say is so far so good, he / they seem like a great company.  I would differ to those of you that know him personally and those reviews all seem positive.

I may have misunderstood the dyno folks when I spoke with them, I think it was 80 - 115 per testing session (3 pulls rights?) not per pull.  I still have some homework there.  Sorry for the mis-info.

What I also would like some help with is contacting the other "tune" vendors out there.  I don't know any of these folks personally.  I can cold call them, but I think this idea would be better recieved from folks that have a relationship with the vendors.  So far, here is the list that I know of, please add as needed:

DDMWorks - Dave - already in for test
Wester's Garage - Lyndon - email sent
Trifecta Tuning - Vince - email sent
Superchips - Scott new vendor - not contacted
BSR?  is that right? |?? - not contacted
others???

Thanks !

Gentleman Jack

[Ben L]

I've been following this thread for some time.  Maybe I don't get it, but isn't there a basic conceptual flaw?    

Multiple tunes = $assload of money.  

Unless all can be loaded on an HP Tuners or similar device and all the tuners are trusting and naive and willing to let someone have all of them on such a device (big if), you are going to need multiple flashed ECMs = $assload of money.  

Mutiple dyno pulls to test tunes vs. each other = $assload of money.  

Who is going to lay out those multiple $assloads of money?  

At the end of the day, who keeps the "winning tune?"  Gentleman Jack? Sounds like an early Christmas in San Diego unless you are bankrolling the experiment.

While our vendors are generous and wonderful, I'm not sure they can afford to give stuff away.

And no dyno operator I ever heard of trying to pay off his machine will give away, what 20 or so, pulls.

And what happens to the "losing tunes?"

I perceive a slight reality disconnect to this idea, if I understand it correctly.  

But if you can make it happen, best of luck.  I will await the results with interest.

[Gentleman Jack]

Maybe I don't get it, but here's the problem: 

Multiple tunes = $assload of money. 

Unless all can be loaded on an HP Tuners or similar device and all the tuners are trusting and naive and willing to let someone have all of them on such a device (big if), you are going to need multiple flashed ECMs = $assload of money. 

Multiple dyno pulls to test tunes vs. each other = $assload of money. 

Who is going to lay out those multiple $assloads of money? 

At the end of the day, who keeps the "winning tune?"  Gentleman Jack?

What happens to the "losing tunes?"

There is a slight reality disconnect to this idea, if I understand it correctly. 

But if you can make it happen, best of luck.  I will await the results with interest.

BenL,

Yes, it can add up to a lot of money.  Luckily, I just won the mega bucks, so it's not an issue.  Just kidding.  I have alluded to the costs earlier in the post, but some folks have stepped forward to help alleviate that issue.  We have Dave from DDM that has volunteered a tune and a member  "TAZZ" that may be able to spare and ecm.  This idea is in it's development stage, but I think it can be done.  I am hopeful that each vendor might be willing to send a tuned ECM for the test, that would leave the dyno time as the biggest expense and we are working on that as well.  As for the winning tune going to anybody, no.  Also covered in previous posts, I am not looking for anything other than information at the end of this test.  Also, I would hesitate to say we are looking for a "winner" here.  To me, I am looking for information.  I don't see it as much a competition as a comparison.  Semantics perhaps, but the goal is different.

Thanks for the input.

Gentleman Jack

[Ben L]

Well, if you pull off this major organizational and vendor relations coup, I think YOU should keep the best of breed (if not winning; they are all winners) tune. 

I note that you defined the specifications for the purpose of the tune to match your personal car's use, which is fine, because its probably representative of a large cross section of real world users.

I agree that it would provide a lot of very useful data.  Be sure to get the data logs, as well as the charts.

I applaud your ambition and the sheer audacity of the idea.  Don't just chase your dream, hunt it down!  This community will be better for it. . . .

-- -Ben L.

[kennysabarese]

I can get a really good price on a dyno in NJ, if the price hasn't changed. 50 bucks for 3 pulls. A little more for the AFR reading.

[Gentleman Jack]

Kennysabarese,
Why style dyno is it do you know?  I wonder if there is a correlation between type of dyno and cost?  Also, is there any preference as to what type of dyno to be on the look out for?

Gentleman Jack

[snaponbob]

As has been discussed ad nauseam, WHICH dyno matters ZERO. The important, and ONLY, issue is the DIFFERENCE in the tunes. Swapping ECMs is asking for potential BIG problems if the plug on the wiring harness is damaged. The other issue is "learning up" the tunes as they ALL need to be driven for the computer to LEARN each one and adjust. Lyndon has a tune that can be loaded via HPT. DDM flashes an ECM. Dejon would have to be checked, but they are working on vending Trifecta which has a proprietary loading system. I believe BTF tunes on site. Hahn would have to be checked. The other tuning issue is that each needs to be tailored to the car AFTER the install, which requires a second iteration. I know Westers does this via e-mail, and so does Trifecta.  Lastly, usually dyno shops quote a price per SESSION which is usually 3 pulls.   

[kennysabarese]

It's a Dynojet.

[Gentleman Jack]

SnaponBob,

Thanks for the info.  I realize that which dyno isn't important as long as it is consistent, I just didn't know if I should look for a particular one to do all the testing on, that is all.  (does that make sense?)

I don't know how easily the pins can be damaged?  Anyone have issues with them?  Seems as though people pop the ECM's in and our regularly.  Is that not the case?  If this goes, this will be a "take extra caution here" step.  I am not looking to destroy the test car, that's for sure!  The learning up issue has been discussed and I think it can be gone around.  Tailoring post install is a new wrinkle.  Going to extend the time the testing takes, but not much else unless I am missing something.

Thanks for the advise and comments, keep them coming!

[Gentleman Jack]

edited previous post:
westers - email sent
trifecta - email sent

still looking for other potential vendors / contact info.   please help if you can.

GJ

[snaponbob]

I don't know how easily the pins can be damaged?  Anyone have issues with them?  Seems as though people pop the ECM's in and our regularly.  Is that not the case?  If this goes, this will be a "take extra caution here" step.  I am not looking to destroy the test car, that's for sure!  The learning up issue has been discussed and I think it can be gone around.  Tailoring post install is a new wrinkle.  Going to extend the time the testing takes, but not much else unless I am missing something.

Thanks for the advise and comments, keep them coming!

How can you do THAT? I have had 10 files from Lyndon, and a few of them sucked when I first started the engine. After a few drive cycles the ECM figured out everything and all was well again.

[Gentleman Jack]

How can you do THAT? I have had 10 files from Lyndon, and a few of them sucked when I first started the engine. After a few drive cycles the ECM figured out everything and all was well again.

SnaponBob,

from earlier in the thread:

To recap some of the questions as to why the set up is the way it is:

As stated, the cars need to learn the tune.  By having 3 or 4 ECMs all tuned to one car, you can instantly swap out the ECM, eliminating the learning curve ( i think).  Here's how it would go:  Get tune "A"- drive for a few hundred miles (laughing all the way- ha ha ha ha ha)
Get tune "B" - repeat, but with different ECM
Get tune "C" and a new set of tires (do I really have to explain why?)

If my understanding is correct, you would then be able to take the car to the test shop, start with the stock tune on ECM1, test.  Replace ECM1 with ECM2 (already driven to learn) and test.

There is more throughout the post on the learning issue.  Basically, multiple ECM's and some time behind the wheel.

Thanks,
Gentleman Jack

[Critterman]

Don't want to let the air out of you sails, but something like this was tried once before with a bigger wheel in a turbo.  User offerred to ship the turbo from one vendor to another to have them tune it, test it, and then send it to the next tuner to see what they could do. 

If I remember correctly - he is still waiting and it has been close to if not longer than a year.  Check with Latin Venom, he would know.

Part of the problem is you have to think like a vendor not a customer.
what if my tune as a vendor comes out better than your tune as a vendor? you lose business....

Or same schenario but your tune is better than mine?  I loss business, either way one of us is going to be P!$$3D!  and may even try to tune it a little to hot to get that edge and our reputation back, and puff there goes a motor.

Great idea but it will never get off the ground.

[Gentleman Jack]

Part of the problem is you have to think like a vendor not a customer.
what if my tune as a vendor comes out better than your tune as a vendor? you lose business....

Or same schenario but your tune is better than mine?  I loss business, either way one of us is going to be P!$$3D!  and may even try to tune it a little to hot to get that edge and our reputation back, and puff there goes a motor.

Critterman,

puff goes the motor makes me a bit nervous.

Perhaps I am a bit nieve in thinking that the vendors that we all love here would never do something to purposely endanger me or my car.  Is that the reality of the situation though?  Maybe you are right.

Anyone else feel as though this is the case?  Is it possible to keep this from being a competition between the vendors? 

Dave from DDM- you have already stepped up and volunteered a tune, what is your perspective as a vendor?  Do you stand to gain / lose anything here?  You were fairly quick to volunteer so I imagine you see some benifit to this test?  Please chime in and let me know.

As for the "your tune is better than mine?" - that is what I am trying to avoid here.  I don't think there is one answer to that question.  That is why the info here is so valuable.  It is the info that will allow an individual to determine "this is better for me" rather than "this is better than that"

Feedback?

Gentleman Jack

 

[snaponbob]

Jack, when an ECM is disconnected, so is the power. When the power is removed from the ECM, it loses what it has "learned" as power removal "resets" the EDM. The TUNE is still there, but the "learn" is erased. Sorry, but swapping the ECM's won'y solve the "learn" issue. 

[Ben L]

You'd have to burn 'em in for a day or two, then do the pulls, swap the ECM, burn that one in, then back to the dyno, etc.  It could work if you booked dyno sessions every other day.  Man what a PITA and a gravy train for the dyno guy!

[snaponbob]

You'd have to burn 'em in for a day or two, then do the pulls, swap the ECM, burn that one in, then back to the dyno, etc.  It could work if you booked dyno sessions every other day.  Man what a PITA and a gravy train for the dyno guy!

EXACTLY.  Bottom line, this is a nice mental exercise, but practically speaking it is almost like pushing a rope up a hill. Not much will be proven. This is simply "dyno racing", just in a different way.

[kennysabarese]

The ECM learning was addressed earlier in this thread guys. Turn back a few pages.

[Ben L]

Yes sort of.  But the questions raised then remain unaddressed.

My take:  ambitious project.  Maybe you can get multiple ECM's flashed with various tunes.  But the key will be having your Mom own the dyno.  Or another very close relative.  or soemone that owes you big.

In the end, I think some useful comparative information would emerge, particularly from the curves and raw data maps.  But its still never going to be apples to apples, because each tuner tunes for different parameters, and every car is different.

And I do not think it will answer the age old question -- what tune should I get?

But these critiques do not mean that you should not proceed.  Illegitimus non carborundum.