Topic: My stock pads are shot. What can I get ASAP

[Ben L]

Ben, having spoken with three different brake pad vendors, there was ONE common comment from them = the discs have to be CLEAN (NO brake pad transfer material) in order to bed in the new pads with the exception of metallic pads like the Hawk Plus, as they will dig through to a fresh surface (i.e. scrape metal off !!). When I put the HPS pads back on the front after killing the OEM pads they simply would not even START to bed in until the disks were turned. Swapping just the pads could present some real problems. They RIGHT way to do it would be pads AND disks, with all parts marked for their corresponding corners.

When I spoke with Cobalt they insisted that since their pads actually deposit material on the discs, the pads are working against a surface that is coated with its own material so it is like pad material against pad material, and thus no wear on the disks. I spoke with some local road racers who confirm the insignificant disk wear when using Cobalt pads. Cobalt said they will work well when cool, yet tolerate temps up to 1600 deg F. They are about $200 per set, and I have the part numbers if needed. The part number is for the backing plate for the pads and then you select the friction material, and thus some of the f/r brake bias can be "tuned".

Kenny, about the only effective way to measure the warp (runout) is with a dial indicator on a brake lathe. There is a method to do it "on car" but it's a hassle and the dial indicator kit can run $100 plus. Since the degree of warpage is in thousandths, using a flat edge is not going to work. Again, swapping stock and HPS pads will NOT work.

Makes sense now that you mention it.  OK, pads and rotors, or find a good compromise compound.  I will be watching with interest to see what you settle on.

[ThunderSky]

I switched to EBC Red Stuff Ceramics last year when I put Drilled and Slotted Rotors on. Really impressed with the stopping power but they squeal a little during soft braking. Seeing as I decided not to Auto Cross my car I took them off and put the stock pads back on for now. I'll change to something else over the winter storage period, probably Hawk HPS will be fine for my normal Street driving.

So, if anyone wants a full set of EBC Ceramics, only about 20-30 thou wear on the rears and 30-40 thou wear on the fronts, lemme know. These would be great for the road course.

[Gentleman Jack]

Thundersky,

PM sent.

[kennysabarese]

Rotors are relatively cheap. why get a really expensive pad just to save the rotors?

[kennysabarese]

with the exception of metallic pads like the Hawk Plus, as they will dig through to a fresh surface (i.e. scrape metal off !!). When I put the HPS pads back on the front after killing the OEM pads they simply would not even START to bed in until the disks were turned.

I got confused first but then clarified when I read it a few times.

So the Hawk Plus will be harsh on rotors but will work no matter what crap is on there.

That sounds attractive to me if I consider the rotors a wear item that will be regularly replaced.

[snaponbob]

Rotors are relatively cheap. why get a really expensive pad just to save the rotors?

Working on the assumption that Cobalt pads will work on street AND track (their assertion, not mine), you would have quiet pads with BIG temperature resistance and little to no disk wear. No more noise, pad swapping, fade, extra cost for disks, etc. MIGHT be money well spent. (Looking at the big picture.) The BIG variable will be how well stock disks hold up to the heat.

[kennysabarese]

What's more cost effective over the long term: Expensive pads and then you never have to replace the rotors, or cheap pads and then you change your rotors.

If you warp your rotors with the Cobalts, you'll have to change the rotors anyway so then it's really expensive.

[snaponbob]

I got confused first but then clarified when I read it a few times.

So the Hawk Plus will be harsh on rotors but will work no matter what crap is on there.

That sounds attractive to me if I consider the rotors a wear item that will be regularly replaced.

The Hawk Plus pads WILL be noisy under light application. As I have said, I have them mounted in back, and they ARE wearing the disks enough that I can see it. Keep in mind that well over 65-70% of the braking is happening up front (by design) assuming identical pad material. This bias is exactly why I don't have Plus pads on the front because of sudden and short interval braking at autocross speeds. That said, with the HPS pads in front, the bias is improved (for me, anyway) with no down side on the street. When I switch pads, they will most likely be Cobalts with 2-3 steps more agressive in back - for the same reasons.

At the speeds, higher level of grips with A6s, and quicker/short use of the brakes, the ABS system almost never works properly at Solo speeds. I have to conclude that the ABS software is designed around the stock platform, its normal use envelope, and "normal" grip levels of street tires. BUT, this all pertains to street and Solo environments. Just as optimum Solo alignments maybe TERRIBLE on road courses, I have NO idea how well the Kappa brakes feel/work on road courses. My GUESS would be that trying to alter the brake bias (as I have done) would be a BAD thing because of the completely different use of brakes on a road course.

Just saying !!!!!

[snaponbob]

What's more cost effective over the long term: Expensive pads and then you never have to replace the rotors, or cheap pads and then you change your rotors.

If you warp your rotors with the Cobalts, you'll have to change the rotors anyway so then it's really expensive.

Ahhhhhhhhhhh, gwasshoppah, you have asked THE important question.

More seriously, you might want to try contacting some T1 Corvette guys and see what they are putting up with. Maybe you can PM Agualante (or whatever his last name is) over on the BB and ask HIM as he has been racing SSB Sols and T2 GXPs through Phoenix Performance for the last four Runoffs. He should certainly know. In the Solstice Performance book I believe the "build" included Plus pads, but they just run 20 lap events. He would be your best point of reference.

[Ben L]

Been thinking about this post, and poking around a bit.  First, the oscillation: Cracked rotors, rotor faces not parallel, or pad material build-up on the rotor surface.  Excessive rotor run out is another reason for oscillating feed back.  Per Carbotech.

Second:  Good high performance "crossover" pads that could handle ocassional track work, and be driven to and from the event safely.

Hawk HP Plus -- Ferro-carbon

Cobalt CSR -- ??

Carbotech AX6  -- Ceramic

Are autox/HPDE pads I'd look at.  Good initial bite; high torque; and wide operating temp. range from 50-1000.  

All say they are easy in the rotor wear dept. All will dust and may squeal on the street.

I think Bob is right:  brake pads leave a film of material in the microgrooves on the rotor.  When switching compounds, that needs to be taken off somehow.  With the friction and heat generated in hard braking, that's inevitable. Remember brakes are an energy conversion device; they convert momentum into heat, and where the pad contacts the rotor surface, there is some serious friction being generated.

I think you do want to consider rotor wear in selecting a pad, even assuming that rotors are consumables.  Unless you are sponsored or something, it would be good for them to last at least one season, and badly scored or grooved rotors are no fun to drive on. Again I found the EBC Yellowstuffs hard on rotors.  

Carbotech advises that you do not need to swap rotors when switching from one of their pads to another. I suppose because the materials they use in their compounds is similar, but varies in proportions.  So conceivably, you could run AX6s on the street and then pop in XP8s or 10s for track work (200-1350 temp.).  Carbotech has a wide selection of ceramic pads, and has great customer support.

Good luck and let us know what you settle on.  

[Ben L]

My .02 on that one:  Even expensive pads in hard use will wear the rotors.  Its a matter of time.  Buy the best pad most closely suited to your application you can afford, and turn/replace the rotors as needed.

[snaponbob]

Correction to the T2/SSB buy. I meant Don Knowles. OOPS.

BTW, the book showed Pagid RS14 front, and Carbotech XP8 rear while the SSB car had Hawk DTC70 pads all the way around. That was THEN, I ahve now idea what they use now. I did send Don a PM asking for some clarification, and I will copy/paste the answer when/if I get it.

[kennysabarese]

So then it seems the big question is. How long will rotors last even if you get the Cobalts that don't wear them out.

Like will they get warped or those other things from other factors.

I have no problem at all changing my pads at the track.

[snaponbob]

So then it seems the big question is. How long will rotors last even if you get the Cobalts that don't wear them out.

Like will they get warped or those other things from other factors.

I have no problem at all changing my pads at the track.

Again, the issue with switching pads is going to be their compatibility with each other. 

[Uranium-238]

Why not freshen the surface up with a metal pad, then switch to your preffered brand? Or do the metallic pads deposit material on the rotor as well?

[Treeman]

Ben - you are sounding awfully scientific for a lawyer!!!   

[snaponbob]

Why not freshen the surface up with a metal pad, then switch to your preffered brand? Or do the metallic pads deposit material on the rotor as well?

I tried all sorts of methods on my front disks when I changed from OEM to Hawk HPS pads. No matter how smooth a metal surface is there are irregularities that allow accumulation of material transferred from the pads. Sanding and/or scrubbing with/without numerous chemicals did not work. Hawk told me to resurface the disks and that worked.   

[snaponbob]

Ben's a lawyer? Damn, there goes all the lawyer jokes. CRAP. 

[Ben L]

Fire away.  I'm used to them.  Everyone trashes 'em till they need one.   

[Ben L]

So then it seems the big question is. How long will rotors last even if you get the Cobalts that don't wear them out.

Like will they get warped or those other things from other factors.

I have no problem at all changing my pads at the track.

Who knows? I think wear-free rotors, especially in track use, is like a unicorn- pretty nice, but a myth.  Again, even with Cobalt pads, I think you will wear the rotors, its only a question of how fast, even, and aggressive the wear will be.  I'd be interested in what you experience if you run the Cobies.

Also, unless you are up for the second set of rotors, or want to go with the Cobalt CSRs (autox pad) I am not sure any of Cobalt's XR-series offerings are going to give good service in street use, but maybe you could swap between CSRs in daily use and XR1s F and XR3 Rs.  Bob, which ones did Cobalt say worked in street use?

As to bad rotor stuff, I guess there are some things you can't control and some you can.  (1) keep lug nuts torqued to spec., no E-brake when hot, and check to ensure pads are seated properly and all pistons are pushing evenly to control warping and dragging; (2) buy top quality rotors with minimal runout, or maybe even have them surfaced when new to make sure they are dead flat; (3) bed your rotors and pads well and properly, and use the same maker's compound when swtiching pads to avoid glazing.

The above gleaned from reading and some personal experiences.

[kennysabarese]

I just don't wanna blow money on the fancy pads and end up stuck replacing everything anyway ya know.

Also going to look into bigger brakes.

[Ben L]

I just don't wanna blow money on the fancy pads and end up stuck replacing everything anyway ya know.

Also going to look into bigger brakes.

Check out Carbotech before busting a move.  Also, may want to hang in for the Wilwoods from SS.  Have 6 pot Superlites on the front and 4 pot Dynalites on the rear of the FFR coupe.  Pad changes are as easy as pulling a pin.  Loves them.

[snaponbob]

Who knows? I think wear-free rotors, especially in track use, is like a unicorn- pretty nice, but a myth.  Again, even with Cobalt pads, I think you will wear the rotors, its only a question of how fast, even, and aggressive the wear will be.  I'd be interested in what you experience if you run the Cobies.

Also, unless you are up for the second set of rotors, or want to go with the Cobalt CSRs (autox pad) I am not sure any of Cobalt's XR-series offerings are going to give good service in street use, but maybe you could swap between CSRs in daily use and XR1s F and XR3 Rs.  Bob, which ones did Cobalt say worked in street use?

As to bad rotor stuff, I guess there are some things you can't control and some you can.  (1) keep lug nuts torqued to spec., no E-brake when hot, and check to ensure pads are seated properly and all pistons are pushing evenly to control warping and dragging; (2) buy top quality rotors with minimal runout, or maybe even have them surfaced when new to make sure they are dead flat; (3) bed your rotors and pads well and properly, and use the same maker's compound when swtiching pads to avoid glazing.

The above gleaned from reading and some personal experiences.

All of them "could" be used on the street (weather dependent) as the XR 1, 2, & 3 have an operating range starting at 100 degrees F, and THAT threshold is one good "brake drag" away. Winter use would be iffy, I would guess. BTW, I was planning on (probably) XR3 front and XR2 rear.

[kennysabarese]

I got all winter! Probably not doing any more track days until spring.

[snaponbob]

Check out Carbotech before busting a move.  Also, may want to hang in for the Wilwoods from SS.  Have 6 pot Superlites on the front and 4 pot Dynalites on the rear of the FFR coupe.  Pad changes are as easy as pulling a pin.  Loves them.

Do the Dynalites have e-brakes?