Topic: Odd dealership request...

[Vanguard]

So I took the Sky into the local Chevy dealer for her car care package deal.  I mentioned to them that I always get a P2187 due to my RPi downpipe, but maybe they could see something different. 

After nearly 3 hours of waiting , I get my car back.  I read my receipt and I have a few questions.  Here it is, verbatim:

29239 found has after market exhaust and K&N filter scan for codes p2187, p2096, p0191 fuel trims lean at idle and cruise, check flow chart all ok at this time check fuel trims with in spec check fuel pressure both are in spec check TIS for updated programming all current call tac case #11321755 no help with codes stored.  Was told to check fuel pressure on test drive all ok check intake system and found aftermarket air filter rec to cust to replace with correct filter and retest K&N filter might be allowing too much air in system causing bad readings.

Alright.  First and foremost...Too much air in the system?!? Really...is that a possibility with the K&N that damn near all of us have?? 

P0191 doesn't show up in the CEL list thread on here...anyone know what that is? 

P2096 - Post Catalyst Fuel Trim System Low Limit Bank 1 - is this probably due to the RPi DP having odd placements for the sensors?


Thanks for the help in advance!!

[Gentleman Jack]

I don't know about the RPI DP, but there is no way a KandN flows enough to throw off the system.  There are too many out there on too many vehicles.  It is an easy test though. Go buy a standard air filter for about 20 bucks and put it in, see if it changes your codes.

GJ

[JRinKY]

You have non-stock components on the car as part of a system that is showing error. Absent the discovery of an actual problem, the tech is going to note the non-stock components as a possible source of the errors. His speculation about why those non-stock parts are a problem is irrelevent.

Non-stock parts behave differently than stock parts. I am pretty certain that is why we install them. Whether that difference has upset the sometimes delicate balance of the vehicle's operation is the concern.

Gentleman Jack has the right idea, but I would take it a step further. Before you let it bother you that it took a tech unfamiliar with the changes you made to your car 3 hours to examine and diagnose it, you should restore it to its original condition and try again.

[DeepBlueGXP]

P0191 Fuel Rail Pressure Sensor Circuit Range/Performance.  There is no way the K&N has anything to do with it.  The RPI downpipe may cause issues in the 02 sensors which causes the ECM to make fuel trim adjustments that aren't necessary resulting in other codes.

[Gentleman Jack]

The RPI down pipe replaces the cat correct?  Couldn't that effect the O2 sensors?  They are both down stream of where the cat should be.  If the car was running a bit rich and there was no cat there to collect, wouldn't the o2 sensors see it as a problem?  OR is that what the P2187 code is that you posted happens frequently?

on a side note: I think they would throw me in prison here in California if I went in for service with out a Cat.  The dealer would call the smog police and they would set up a sting operation, poof. I'd be gone.

GJ

[Uranium-238]

All the more reason not to live in Cali. Though, I guess I can say I live in California, as that's my town's name. Here we can run catless without getting into too much trouble though, and many people do. No emissions tests, only time you really need a cat is when you buy a car and get it inspected.

[Vanguard]

I could go back to stock up to the exhaust...but I really don't have the equipment to get that done. 

The P2187 is almost always on...they cleared it yesterday and on the drive home at around the 10th mile it came back on.  I talked with Eloy long ago and he said that a few people have that code pop up with the DP, but its just because the sensors are in a different place.  If you've never seen the RPi DP, theres this long bung that comes out that attempts to get the sensor in the same spot as the stock cat. 

The fuel rail code is BRAND NEW.  I've never had that pop up, so I am a bit concerned.  However, if that could be due to the DP, then I'll try to not fret too much. 

The other thing that I got to thinking about is maybe my tune just isn't quite right.  RPi worked with PowerChip to develop one that worked in tandem with their products.  But nowadays with Westers and Trifecta, I'm beginning to think that those might be a better alternative to what I have now.  Thoughts?

[DeepBlueGXP]

P2187 is a code for the bank 1 too lean and if you getting a fuel rail code, perhaps the fuel rail is going bad?  Lil Goat on the SF had a fuel rail go bad.

[elff]

What is this car care package deal you are talking about?
I purchased a protection plan from my dealership which had them detail the car once a year, and that would provide me a warranty for the carpets, leather and paint in case any of them get stained
With Saturn going away, this is the one item the Chevy Dealership wont honor.
Is there some way to get it honored now?

[Vanguard]

The Saturn Car Care Package was $500 (I think) and covered all oil changes, tire rotations, filters, and I think included all scheduled services until 50,000.  I'll have to go back and check it out.  With the Saturn dealership I used to go to turning into a VW place, I went across the street to Power Chevy.  The first thing I told the guy was "now that the Saturn dealership is shut down..." and he cut me off and said "we are saturn" and they honored the service.  Maybe I lucked out and found a dealer who took care of it...?

Fuel rail issue...haven't heard of this before.  Are there any obvious symptoms pre-failure?

[scanner]

Start here: P0191: Fuel Rail Pressure (FRP) Sensor Performance
Tech 2 can be used ramp FP up and down as a test. Chances are there is an electrical problem between the sensor and the ECM.  It could be sensor, but only the Tech 2 is likely to have the software to do all the necessary testing.  The fail record information is important too, this diagnostic has two tests, one at start up and another during engine running.  Ask the technician to print the fail record data from his TIS terminal if they can't fix it.  Post the info, or have the dealer save the fail records to a text file you can analyze or post here. 

[Vanguard]

Not sure how they'd like me coming in there telling them to run tests, but it never hurts to ask.  I'll report back tomorrow.

If anyone knows any symptoms of a fuel rail going bad, I'd love to hear them.

[scanner]

The DTC indicates the technician needs to do these tests with a scan tool to diagnose the cause.  All you want to see are the results of the tests and data from the ECM because you are a car enthusiast and want to be a diagnostician when you grow up.  You're in such awe of the pros you want to learn their guru secrets and of course you brought fresh bagels or such.

Once I took my Tech2 with the Yukon data capture to the dealer and showed the service adviser, we showed the technician. The tech immediately agreed with me that I had finally caught the intermittent wheel speed sensor signal that was bugging wife about once per week for about six months and two trips to the dealer with no help. Scanner

[tazz]

Don't come off as an ASS when you ask them.  Just bring it up while talking with them that you have been talking with a tech on a meassage board and he suggested that might work.  It's always seemed to work for me while I'm discussing the problem  with the tech and or shop manager.  Usually they say yeah we thought about that but will try this first or that might work.  Sometimes the suggestion helps sometimes not but DO NOT go in there and tell them do this and that or you will probably have issues with the tech.

[scanner]

I agree with Tazz.

[SHiNY]

If anyone knows any symptoms of a fuel rail going bad, I'd love to hear them.

Lil Goat on the SF had a fuel rail go bad.

Fuel rail issue...haven't heard of this before.  Are there any obvious symptoms pre-failure?

I had this same issue around the same time as Lil' Goat. If you do a search you will see that a lot of people have had this problem. It is usually the fuel rail / fuel pump combo that goes bad. The only symptoms mine had was limp mode. I was driving in bumper to bumper traffic so was stop and go when all of a sudden my car refused to go! She wouldn't go over approx. 30 mph. I don't remember what the codes were but if you do a search on either of the other forums you will see numerous threads regarding this issue.

However, when I got the codes P0101 and P2178 it turned out to be a bad MAF sensor, which they switched out and now she's running fine. The car went into limp mode when I had this too but not as badly. I was able to keep up with traffic on the highway (approx. 65 mph) but couldn't go much faster than that.

[Gentleman Jack]

I agree with Scanner who agrees with Tazz.

Ask nice.  Smile.  Be humble (that one was tough for me) and make friends.

Baseball tix don't hurt either...

GJ

[SHiNY]

I agree with all of you. I just wanted to share some symptoms with others

[Sol Asylum]

...and make friends.

GJ

Don't anyone set him straight on this one.  It will totally mess up his reality.

[Vanguard]

HAHA!  I asked them to check the MAF, but I'm not sure if they did.  I suppose I can check that tomorrow on my own. 

Something else I thought about...it took a year for my P2187 to pop up after I put on the DP.  Could that issue simply be from dirty O2 sensors?

[scanner]

Correct P0191, then work on the P2187.  P2187 could be small exhaust leak ahead of the O2 sensor that draws in air at idle.  A dirty o2 sensor is not likely the cause of any of these DTCs.  Plugging in a scantool to look at the O2 voltages and fuel pressure sensor would tell us a lot - fast. No three hours to get actionable info. Scanner