Topic: LIPSTICK'S 800hp first LNF compound turbo/engine build!

[shabby]

We are hoping to boost this set-up at around 28-35psi

That will be your low boost setting, with those two turbo's compounded you'll be hovering in the 40-50psi range. The small turbo will act as a multiplier of the boost from the large turbo, better get yourself a 60psi boost gauge i kid you not.

[HAMMER DOWN]

Good luck with the build, Sounds like it's going to be a awesome set-up.

[scoobyless]

Mallet is a joke. "Junkyard" LS1's can be had for $1500, wouldn't be too hard for any good shop to stuff it in our cars. And if you want to go with a new crate engine, LS3s run about 5-6k, LS1's a bit less.

Have you ever been in a mallett race car?  Maybe their swaps are expensive, but they also are extremely knowledgeable and do pretty nice work.

Back to this thread, a gt40/42r isn't 70lbs, but I'd say it's atleast 25, haven't pulled mine off the race car in a while.  Don't forget about the extra exhaust pipe and wastegates

[Kelu]

20-50-70-100 lbs does matter in these conditions? I bet that weight will not feel for his power levels.

Antonio: Wiseco pistons have their own rings?

[SKY888]

That will be your low boost setting, with those two turbo's compounded you'll be hovering in the 40-50psi range. The small turbo will act as a multiplier of the boost from the large turbo, better get yourself a 60psi boost gauge i kid you not.

shabster, yes the small turbo will act as a multiplier of the boost from the large turbo.
but no, I will only be be boosting a total of 28-35 psi only.

you want the boost pressure from the big turbo, or the inlet pressure of the small turbo (same thing), applied to the top port of your small turbo WG. When the big turbo makes 1 psi, the small turbo will raise its output 1 psi. Otherwise you'll never get full boost, unless you set the boost controller for the small turbo at full boost, but the problem with that is that you'll be working the small turbo hard until the big turbo spools.

So basically, once the small turbo spools at 20psi.......and the big turbo starts spooling.......every 1psi that big turbo produces the higher my total psi will become.

for example:
small turbo 20psi + big turbo 1psi = total of 21psi (manifold)
then when
small turbo 20psi + big turbo 4psi = total of 24psi
then
small turbo 20psi + big turbo 8psi = total of 28psi

then after that
small turbo will stay at 20psi and big turbo will go up in boost = total will keep on going up til 28psi (up to 35psi).


that will be what I'm doing.  I'm following what Kevin Jewer did.  I am not sure if you see him on one of the dsm forums (kjewer).   We've been communicating for the past month, and he highly recommends this set-up since his compound set-up produced 600whp (28psi small turbo + 17psi big turbo)....total of 45psi I believe.

To usehis  big turbo as an example, it would be perfectly happy making 45 psi on his 2 liter motor moving 80 lbs/min. But, being set to only 17 psi it still moves 80 lbs/min. In his case the T3 50 trim is at 2:1 moving 80lbs/min. At first you'll be like WTF, that's off the chart to the right! But remember that "perceived" airflow, or what the small turbo feels like it's moving, is total airflow divided by the PR of the big turbo. So the 50 trim feels like it's moving 38lbs/min, for the sake of plotting on the chart.

that particular WG plumbing arrangement is what makes the two boost pressure additive


no need to boost very high to get 600hp........since the small turbo is  re-compressing an already compressed air (produced by the big turbo) ......

[SKY888]

20-50-70-100 lbs does matter in these conditions? I bet that weight will not feel for his power levels.

Antonio: Wiseco pistons have their own rings?

yes wiseco includes their own rings....

[SKY888]

Have you ever been in a mallett race car?  Maybe their swaps are expensive, but they also are extremely knowledgeable and do pretty nice work.

Back to this thread, a gt40/42r isn't 70lbs, but I'd say it's atleast 25, haven't pulled mine off the race car in a while.  Don't forget about the extra exhaust pipe and wastegates

extra exhaust pipe and a 60mm tial wastegate....I guess....extra 10 lbs

[shabby]

shabster, yes the small turbo will act as a multiplier of the boost from the large turbo.

Right, so why are you adding boost below rather than multiplying it by the pressure ratio? There's no addition in a compound setup, the small turbo is now multiplying the already compressed air coming into its inlet based on the pressure ratio its set to now. You'll be running 40+ psi with this setup, anything below just won't produce the power you're after.

[SKY888]

Right, so why are you adding boost below rather than multiplying it? There's no addition in a compound setup, the small turbo is now multiplying the already compressed air coming into its inlet based on the pressure ratio its set to now. You'll be running 40+ psi with this setup, anything below just won't be worth it..

I will follow what kevin did.  What's working well for him is running the big turbo just regulating it's output pressure.  The small turbo has manifold pressure to the side port and add it's inlet pressure (big turbo outlet pressure) to the top port.  My small turbo will come up and make 20 psi and then the big turbo starts to make boost and as it comes up its output pressure is added to the small turbo's spring rate via the top port.  Total boost ends up at 28 psi.   It's additive in this configuration.  What's nice is that the small turbo is never really asked to make more than 20psi.  As manifold pressure comes up to 28psi, the small turbo's pressure ratio actually goes down.   Then I will just put an MBC on the big turbo for more boost control.

this is what kevin who has a very succesful compound turbo set-up told me, and also using it on his compound turbo set-up.  Boost pressures are additive in this configuration......

[SKY888]

in a compound set-up,  pressure ratios of the turbos are not additive but are multiplied though......

so on the compressor side, if I run both turbos at a 2:1 pressure ratio, which is equivalent to about 15 psi around sea level..........I'll end up 45 psi instead of 30, and neither turbo will be choking.....


but I will not go as high as 45 psi though......since I will  be using lower pressure ratios.....

[shabby]

but I will not go as high as 45 psi though

Yes you will, count on it. Look at the compressor maps of both turbo's, no point in running them below 2:1 pr especially the large one, it likes to sing upto 4:1 pr 
Also using mbc's will shift the pr ratios of both turbo's when they're building boost, might not be a good idea if you want to stay in a set efficiency range. Simply using springs in the wastegate is a better solution.



Autometer has a 60psi boost gauge, you'll need it.
http://www.autometer.com/cat_gaugedetail.aspx?gid=3445&sid=4

[SKY888]

yeah, I will be basically setting a 20psi spring for my small turbo's wastegate, and probably an 8psi spring for the big turbo's wastegate.   Boost control will be on the big turbo's wastegate...so I can bring it up to 15psi.

and yeah, you are right especially with the big turbo....it will be happy at higher PR range.

but you also have to realize that with a compound turbo set-up it would be different.   Just what I previously mentioned....To use his  big turbo as an example, it would be perfectly happy making 45 psi on his 2 liter motor moving 80 lbs/min.  But, being set to only 17 psi it still moves 80 lbs/min. In his case the T3 50 trim is at 2:1 moving 80lbs/min. At first you'll be like WTF, that's off the chart to the right! But remember that "perceived" airflow, or what the small turbo feels like it's moving, is total airflow divided by the PR of the big turbo. So the 50 trim feels like it's moving 38lbs/min, for the sake of plotting on the chart.


he is only boosting a total of 45psi (28psi from 50 trim and 17psi from his T6 s475).......producing 80 lbs/min.   His turbos are both way bigger compared to my turbos.    

I think I just need to keep the PR lil bit close to 2:1 (even though mine will be lil bit lower)........since most turbos are perfectly happy at that level (2:1).   My plan will be 20psi from my gt28 and 15psi from my gt40 (total of 35psi)

but we'll see........what happens.  I might be totaly wrong in trying to boost only 35psi....I might need 45psi....lol    It's my first compound turbo set-up.....I know there will be tons of trial and errors

I'm no expert and still trying to learn every single day.   

You have been helping me out since 2 years ago

[GXPinKC]

I will follow what kevin did.  What's working well for him is running the big turbo just regulating it's output pressure.  The small turbo has manifold pressure to the side port and add it's inlet pressure (big turbo outlet pressure) to the top port.  My small turbo will come up and make 20 psi and then the big turbo starts to make boost and as it comes up its output pressure is added to the small turbo's spring rate via the top port.  Total boost ends up at 28 psi.   It's additive in this configuration.  What's nice is that the small turbo is never really asked to make more than 20psi.  As manifold pressure comes up to 28psi, the small turbo's pressure ratio actually goes down.   Then I will just put an MBC on the big turbo for more boost control.

this is what kevin who has a very successful compound turbo setup told me, and also using it on his compound turbo setup.  Boost pressures are additive in this configuration......

SKY888,  in the early 90's I was in awe of the Eagle Talon and the reputation it received from the car magazines, specifically "Car and Driver" and some of the others, including Motor Trend.  I used to read those magazines because I was interested in sports cars, and remember that back then the Eagle Talon was featured on Car and Driver magazines Ten Best List from about 1990 to about 1993.  It had quite a reputation for sure, and I always liked how it looked and performed.  I was extremely interested in your remark about your mentor, Kevin Jewel, owner of the 1991 Eagle Talon compound turbo setup.  Anyway, sorry this post has gotten a little long winded.

I am just so excited for you and the project that you have taken on.  All of us on this forum will be closely watching this thread with great interest!!!!!  Thanks for the vine, and good luck with your venture.  Hope to meet you someday at a Meet.  May I ask if you might be interested in attending the 2011 North American Solstice Sky Meet to be held in Austin, Texas?  I sure hope so, because I would certainly enjoy meeting you in person.  Thanks for keeping us all updated in your on going project. 

Most sincerely,
GXPinKC
Ron

[SKY888]

Hi Ron!  Thanks!

Yeah, Eagle talon is bad ass!   I met Kevin at the supra forums.   He is one of the most helpful guys in regards to "compound turbo".   I trust him, since he has a successful compound turbo set-up on his car.   Very helpful and knowledgeable.   He actually fabricate his own set-up.....and drives at the strip great too!    I am very lucky that he is somebody local, I always see him at New Englad Dragway where he drag races and where I compete in drag shows. 


Yes, if time and job permits, I would love to go to one of the national meets!    I know I am already using 3 weeks of vacation days (next summer) since I will bring my wife to the Philippines (where I'm originally from)....and show her where I grew up and stuff....lol.   So I'm hoping that my boss will still allow me to go for a few days to attend a meet

it's nice to meet forum members in person.   I met a few people here in the northeast steve mariano (spicy), reedred, morfius, shiny, garydn, SNEKR CROWD, and etc.  bunch of good people.

antonio

[NormSky]

Should make for some interesting fueling. 

Good luck and keep us up to date.

[SKY888]

trifecta-hpt tune

DDM walbro 255 lph fuel pump
microsquirt
btf secondary fuel rail


hopefully those things will help out

[Graywolf]

Sounds like a great build and you have the the right guys helping you. you didn't mention replacing oil pump gears[Bates billet],spring tensioner[Bates has a heavier spring], and placing a better dampner[Ati custom made one for me]. I need help picking out a bigger turbo and someone to help me set it up. Car is currently used road racing time attack and need 425-450 hp. I like Garret turbo's. I agree with you about using the LNF engine, its more expensive in the long run than using LS1 but your car is very very special!!! Appreciate any advise Thanks Gray wolf

[SKY888]

Sounds like a great build and you have the the right guys helping you. you didn't mention replacing oil pump gears[Bates billet],spring tensioner[Bates has a heavier spring], and placing a better dampner[Ati custom made one for me]. I need help picking out a bigger turbo and someone to help me set it up. Car is currently used road racing time attack and need 425-450 hp. I like Garret turbo's. I agree with you about using the LNF engine, its more expensive in the long run than using LS1 but your car is very very special!!! Appreciate any advise Thanks Gray wolf

thanks much!

yes, I completely forgot to add them on my list!  lol!  Too much stuff .....hahaha!

so you like road racing and time attack?  425-450 whp.....It will be nice to have gt30 or 35 on your car

If you need a kit, please call baldturbofreak (BTF).  He will be able to set you up with a good kit.

Especially that your bottom end and your cylinder head is all beefed up, you can easily get 450 whp with either gt3076r or gt3582r.

I was able to get 400 whp on the gt35......with stock internals/head.......and I know I can easily get more.......with aftermarket internal parts

and my current set-up is a daily driver.  I've tried both gt30 and gt35.....on my sky, and they are not bad on city driving

HTH

[SKY888]

UPDATE:

since, I'm very cautious about using a tubular manifold that will crack later on.   Burnsstainless.com will be providing BTF 321 stainless steel to use for the manifold fabricating.  321 stainless steel tubing is one of the most desirable materials for exhaust systems because of its excellent resistance to fatigue and cracking at elevated temperatures.  It is usually the material of choice for high temperature turbo applications.

On top of that, I talked to the manager/metallurgist of Nitrofreeze about having the 321 stainless steel manifold cryo-treated since I really want the BTF tubular manifold to last and not crack due to heat cycles.

Ryan told me that a 321 stainless steel is 17-19% carbon.  It would benefit from cryo-treatment.   the manifold will undergo stress relieving.  This helps remove stresses that will develop intro cracks as the part ages.  Retained austenite will convert to martensite making the manifold less susceptible to cracking.

So Nitrofreeze.com, one of my sponsors recommended to have my 321 tubular manifold, dp, and other hot parts be cryo-treated first.....before going to swaintech for ceramic coating.

[Yogi]

Very interesting project, Tony!

Good luck!

[scanner]

Very very interesting project. I would like to know how much ECM recal work is needed. Best wishes for 5,500 hours of enjoyment.
Clear Skies!

[SKY888]

Very very interesting project. I would like to know how much ECM recal work is needed. Best wishes for 5,500 hours of enjoyment.
Clear Skies!

the biggest challenge is fuel delivery since we'll probably be pushing around 70-80 lb/min on this project.   I'm hoping that by October 2010, HPtuners already unlocked the fuel pressure table and some others....

If not, HPT-trifecta tune will be used.

[SKY888]

here's a couple of videos of my compound turbo mentor (kjewer)...who ran his compound turbo Talon at 8.9 sec at 1/4 mile

http://www.youtube.com/user/kjewer1#p/u

http://www.youtube.com/user/kjewer1#p/u/0/dhdFgGDlAmg

http://www.youtube.com/user/kjewer1#p/u/3/QZ8vfdB0_yo

[Arabas]

Sky888, had you considered using a supercharger and a turbo, like VW group does with the 1.4L TSI twincharger engine?
with this set up, you would have immediate low end torque and power throughout the rpm range and minimum lag.
i know it s TOO complicated, but i thought i d ask, since i believe u already have looked into it.

[Kelu]

I know he looked into that, there are other LSJ  Cobalts with twincharge upgrades, some did at his tuner, he likes to be different and if compund turbo works out is by far simpler.