Topic: 2008+ 2.4L weaker motor????? "YES"

[J_Bond]

I read a post recently that stated the bottom end on the 2008+ 2.4L engines are designed 'weaker' from the factory....  apparently earlier versions possessed forged internals and the new motors do not.
any credence to this statement?   DDMWorks feel free to step in   

EDIT:
Found my answer!!!!  there is NO WAY IN HECK I am installing the SC now!!!!!  connecting rods in 2008 are powder-forged and can't handle much more power and can't handle much beyond 7,000rpm...
read link: http://www.solsticeforum.com/forum/f64/factory-le5-connecting-rods-please-read-66445/

[JimmyBaja]

The failures havn't been the rods, they have been pistin and/or ring related. Stage 1 is only approx 50 hp gain so as long as it's tuned proper to avoid detonation you should be ok.

[ChopTop]

Here's what member oldschool posted:
Here are the different part numbers for the rods:

2006-2007: 12596088 A 2.4-B/P (LE5), (1ST DES) ROD, CONN (FORGED STEEL W/ROUNDED EDGES ON CAP AND MFG TRIM MARK AROUND OUTER PERIMETER) (FOR 2ND DES SEE 12611360)

2008+ 12598216 A 2.4-B/P (LE5), (2ND DES) ROD, CONN (POWDER METAL W/SMOOTH SURFACE CAP AND SINGLE RIDGE ACROSS CAP, W/O MFG TRIM MARK AROUND OUTER PERIMETER) (FOR 1ST DES SEE 12596088)

Any one running over 300hp on the later rods is playing with fire! (note this is only for the LE5)

So I wouldn't automatically discount your original plan as much as accepting that if you want to stick to it that you consider upgrading the rods.  From your previous posts you come across as performance orientated so it doesn't sound like you're going to be satisfied in the long-run settling for lower HP numbers than you originally planned for.  Just be glad you discovered it now rather than later.

[Brad Kenny]

Talk with DDM Works, or other Forum People... Critter and Helios were running Stage 3 for YEARS and thousands of miles. I do not think DDM would put out an upgrade that would intentionally "detonate" engines. Dave just cares too much about the KAPPA community and the cars in general.

I would already be ready to do a full engine build if necessary for the LE5 (Rods, Pistons, Springs, Rings, Sleeves, Head, and other internals) if you are going to do any boosting. If you are gonna go, GO BIG!!!

In the end, Critter always speaks the truth on this topic, "If you are gonna play, you have to be willing to pay." I live by this, it is the soundest advice for ANY car modifications.

[Critterman]

There is a difference in the rods, don't remember when it came out but it was mid year, not all cars of the model year were involved.

[DeepBlueGXP]

None of the failures I've heard about have been the rods.

[Jackknife]

There does not seem to be any pattern:

     by far, most supercharged 2.4 engines are humming along with no significant problems;

     some, few, S/C 2.4 engines have had serious problems, some of these were Stage III, some lesser stages;

     some problem engines were pre 2008, some later (although none, as far as I've heard, involved rods);

     some problem engines were after-market turbo equipped.


And, because it needs to be mentioned, different drivers drive differently.

    

[SKY888]

I don't care if you put Billet Rods/forged pistons/cast iron sleeves...........

if the TUNE sucks.....your motor will blow.


if you drive aggressively or NOT like my gramma............if your tune is good (supercharged or turbocharged), your motor will be fine.


some rods can only handle so much power............but if you are under that breaking point, and if your tune is good....then your engine will be safe.  

[ophidia31]

You arent in danger of anything running powdered rods. The L32 3800 engine runs powdered rods and theyre actually an UPGRADE from the older L67 rods. And either of those rods hold up to 700+ hp and one hell of a beating. I would look at the pistons before I look at the crank/rods of newer gm engines.

Like sky said, if your tune sucks, well.... Ive seen alot of guys with the 3800sc smoke pistons because theyre to stupid to get it tuned right and just throw a smaller pulley on because it gives you more boost when in reality, youre knocking like a  casuing more harm then good.

[J_Bond]

I've been going through the 2.4L forum areas and have yet to come across anyone with 2008+ boosted Kappas.
THAT is what worries me.  Everyone is chiming in about how so many Kappas are running fine, but they are all 06-07.
anyone with a boosted 08-09, please feel free to chime in.  and btw, where's our vendors?     They never chimed in on the prior discussions about the powder-forged rods either. 

I've read countless articles on the prone-to-fail powder-forged rods.  It's an easy google search.  The 2.2L Cobalts have had a mess of problems with the powder-forged rods found in the 08-09 2.4L's.... 

[S.P.]

A member on the solstice forum had his engine destroyed by a failed rod. The details are here:
http://www.solsticeforum.com/forum/f64/fs-ddm-supercarger-68815/

Also, the GM build book recommends that both pistons and rods be upgraded for the LE5 when reaching 250 horsepower.

LSJ/LNF rods are rated for 400 horsepower.

[Dave@DDMworks]

btw, where's our vendors? 

Busily getting ready for nationals

[Dave@DDMworks]

As for the questions about the differences with the 2008-2009 2.4L engines, here is what we have learned -

The 2008+ engine has factory knife edging
The 2008+ pistons are a different design from the 2006-2007 pistons
The 2008+ rods are a different design then the 2006-2007 rods
The 2008+ uses a different intake manifold to accomodate the different map sensor then the 2006-2007
The 2008+ uses a different ECM with different programming
The 2008+ uses different stock injectors then the 2006-2007

All of the literature I have found on the rods states that they have always been powdered metal rods on the 2.4L. It appears that there was a manufacturer change in 2008 and that is the reason for the different look.

From the Gm media site for 2008 - "The 2.4L VVT uses forged C70 steel connecting rods" - http://archives.media.gm.com/us/powertrain/en/product_services/2008/08car.htm
From the GM media site for 2006 - "The 2.4 VVT (LE5) uses C70 material forged steel connecting rods" - http://archives.media.gm.com/us/powertrain/en/product_services/2006/car%20eng%20trans.html

I will try to sneak in and get some more info posted later.
Thanks,
Dave

[ophidia31]

That solstice failure wasnt due to weak rods, it was due to unforseen events. A clogged cat leads to knocking leading to failure. Any major backpressure in a s/c application will in turn take out an engine because of it. Properly tuned or not. Which is why its a good idea to always scann the car to make sure everything is on the up and up. That cloggedcat failure would have been easily noticed if some scanning was done. Im a firm believer that this engine will run safe with the stage two, but the stage 3 I would look at doing something with the internals and exhaust.

[ChopTop]

Also, if you have an early 08 maybe you have forged rods since GM employs the just-in-time-system and decided to switch from forged to powder for whatever reason.

[S.P.]

That solstice failure wasnt due to weak rods, it was due to unforseen events. A clogged cat leads to knocking leading to failure. Any major backpressure in a s/c application will in turn take out an engine because of it. Properly tuned or not. Which is why its a good idea to always scann the car to make sure everything is on the up and up. That cloggedcat failure would have been easily noticed if some scanning was done. Im a firm believer that this engine will run safe with the stage two, but the stage 3 I would look at doing something with the internals and exhaust.

Forgive my ignorance on engine mechanics, but I was under the impression that a clogged cat converter wouldn't cause an engine to fail; this was stated by a vendor in another thread anyway. With that in mind, I posted that thread thinking the weaker design of the rod was the reason for the fail. In any case I've learned something new today.

[ophidia31]

Oh I wasnt saying you were wrong, but in a boosted application, a clogged cat can cause a failure when it isnt resolved. I just re-read his post, the fact that he have a back fire like that, cleared the codes and then got on it again just showed his ignorance to his vehicle. He was asking for it then. I would have been surprised it those plugs werent destroyed as well. His hollowing of the cat was just probably to late to help any thing since he had those two backfires BEFORE calling ddm to ask what was going on.

[SKY888]

if I am pushing my engine ............I will make sure I don't have a clogged cat converter

[ophidia31]

Haha, Im not saying just that. Just scan scan scan. If you dont have a scanner, i highly suggest one. An aeroforce gauge is nice to have. If you dont have a stand alone boost gauge, get one of those too. That is a real easy indicator of something wrong. When the back pressure gets more than what its supposed to, the air isnt getting out of the engine and just heating up to what we called in the 3800 world as boost stacking. This would show up as a higher psi than what you should be getting under the normal operating conditions from the supercharger forcing more air into the engine than its putting out. This would end up with the ecu trying to pulling timing and possibly dumping fuel do to quench the knock being sensed to the point where it just cant do anymore and the rest is history. Opening up the exhaust usually solved alot of issues and allowed for a safer running engine. There is alot more to it, but thats pretty much the basics.

[Helios]

I've been going through the 2.4L forum areas and have yet to come across anyone with 2008+ boosted Kappas.
 

Here's one in reply #3. http://www.kappaperformance.com/forum/index.php/topic,3531.0.html

[J_Bond]

I'm confused by DDMworks post because I emailed them a couple months ago ready to purchase the Stage1 for my 08 auto and they said the TCM program was not available so they could not do it....  perhaps they very recently made it available? 

[elff]

You autotragic owners are so needy

[Sly Bob]

I've been going through the 2.4L forum areas and have yet to come across anyone with 2008+ boosted Kappas.

I have a friend that is a supporting member here that has a DDM stage 3 supercharger on his 09 LE5.

[elff]

I have a DDM 2871 Turbo on my 2008 Kappa
Does that count?

[Helios]

I have a DDM 2871 Turbo on my 2008 Kappa
Does that count?

If it's an LE5, yes.