Author Topic: HPFP or in tank pump... whats the real limiting fuel factor?  (Read 123539 times)

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Offline tazz

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Re: HPFP or in tank pump... whats the real limiting fuel factor?
« Reply #25 on: October 11, 2011, 06:09:54 PM »
I'll see if I can find it.

Offline Kelu

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Re: HPFP or in tank pump... whats the real limiting fuel factor?
« Reply #26 on: October 11, 2011, 06:32:39 PM »
Here are some pictures
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Offline LatinVenom

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Re: HPFP or in tank pump... whats the real limiting fuel factor?
« Reply #27 on: October 11, 2011, 07:20:15 PM »
Kelu,
Thanks those were the ones I was looking for, however came across this thread from WERKS Racing.


http://www.solsticeforum.com/forum/f102/new-werksracing-kappa-drop-fuel-pump-kits-support-up-700hp-67513/
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Offline miller11386

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Re: HPFP or in tank pump... whats the real limiting fuel factor?
« Reply #28 on: October 11, 2011, 09:16:31 PM »
My question is would there be enough demand to justify a vendor to produce a  higher flow rate HPFP Probably not, Maybe? 
I would have thought when ZZP did some tests of there HPFP upgrade that they would produce one that would be up to the task but there must have been some sort of hangup or limitation without a cam change.  Also anyone can rule out HPT being able to tune for it since Chris said something about the it's a hard wired parameter that can not be changed if I remember the discussion correctly.

Tim at ZZP said that HPT unlocked injector parameters, and that in conjunction with the lpfp upgrade make it possible to acheive the high hp without manifold spray.

They claim the 898whp 'balt is not using anything but a hpfp, the rail pressure at 2900psi, Large fuel lobe cam, and an aeromotive stealth in the tank.

Which makes any fueling I want, completely attainable.  :tool:


I would just like another person to tell me that's the truth, or at least validate that Tim knows his stuff, because I have zero interaction other than a few emails back and forth.
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Offline snaponbob

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Re: HPFP or in tank pump... whats the real limiting fuel factor?
« Reply #29 on: October 11, 2011, 09:21:09 PM »
It looks exactly like a Walbro. I have not been able to get the specs on it.
Bob Buxbaum
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2007 Redline, Revalved Konis, Crazy alignment
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Offline kennysabarese

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Re: HPFP or in tank pump... whats the real limiting fuel factor?
« Reply #30 on: October 11, 2011, 09:22:20 PM »
This guy says one is available. Why do you need a vendor to make one.

Bosch MotorSport has a new higher volume and pressure HPFP available.

Y'all need to make friends with Bosch MotorSports, our LNF engines are basically designed and made by them.

http://www.bosch-motorsport.de/content/downloads/Documentation/Bosch_Motorsport_Catalog_2012.pdf

--Christian
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Offline tazz

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Re: HPFP or in tank pump... whats the real limiting fuel factor?
« Reply #31 on: October 11, 2011, 10:43:02 PM »
Probably cost is through the roof remember the ECM it's like 4K.

Offline miller11386

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Re: HPFP or in tank pump... whats the real limiting fuel factor?
« Reply #32 on: October 12, 2011, 05:59:54 AM »
So from what I am reading in this thread, with a larger fuel lobe on the cam and an upgraded lpfp, there could be higher hp engine builds that would not need a 5th injector and mani spray.

SOB, sounds like the walbro you "upgraded" to could be very similar to (or less than) the stock flow. That would support the claim that if you went to a stealth /A1000 you may see a fueling difference. If you get the larger lobe cam, you could definitely get more fuel... now the question is, what is the easiest way to prove it? and who has a motor that could be the test mule? (im guessing no one will be jumping at this, so it will probably fall to me when I build up my sky.)
Check out Miller's Youtube Channel HERE

Offline kennysabarese

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Re: HPFP or in tank pump... whats the real limiting fuel factor?
« Reply #33 on: October 12, 2011, 06:56:57 AM »
There is an option for the low pressure pump I don't think anyone tried. Any gmt 900 platform  gas truck has a drop in tank pump that flows more.
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Offline LatinVenom

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Re: HPFP or in tank pump... whats the real limiting fuel factor?
« Reply #34 on: October 12, 2011, 08:35:49 AM »
I surprise no one has made a comment about the Werks Fuel pump I posted.
They advertise up to 700 HP and also E85.
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Mods: Magnaflow 2.5" exhaust, DDM Backbone & ProBeam,ZOK suspension,LV Kappa Front Chassis Brace, BTF Turbo Upgraded Wheel, Windristrictor, JPM Center console,arms,tulip,side doors,DDM Upgraded wheel tune.

Offline snaponbob

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Re: HPFP or in tank pump... whats the real limiting fuel factor?
« Reply #35 on: October 12, 2011, 07:35:03 PM »
Tim at ZZP said that HPT unlocked injector parameters, and that in conjunction with the lpfp upgrade make it possible to acheive the high hp without manifold spray.

They claim the 898whp 'balt is not using anything but a hpfp, the rail pressure at 2900psi, Large fuel lobe cam, and an aeromotive stealth in the tank.

Which makes any fueling I want, completely attainable.  :tool:


I would just like another person to tell me that's the truth, or at least validate that Tim knows his stuff, because I have zero interaction other than a few emails back and forth.

An LNF with a stock turbo?  A couple of pumps and a tune?  I don't think so.
Bob Buxbaum
snaponbob AT comcast DOT net
2007 Redline, Revalved Konis, Crazy alignment
FE3 front and Z0K rear bars, owner installed pwr lock buttons
catless downpipe, SP custom exhaustWester's tune
racing springs and adjustable perches
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Offline miller11386

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Re: HPFP or in tank pump... whats the real limiting fuel factor?
« Reply #36 on: October 12, 2011, 07:42:25 PM »
no bob. built motor with large fuel lobe cam and upgraded lpfp and larger turbo and supporting bolt ons.

but they were able to fuel it w.o manifold spray...
Check out Miller's Youtube Channel HERE

Offline snaponbob

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Re: HPFP or in tank pump... whats the real limiting fuel factor?
« Reply #37 on: October 12, 2011, 07:54:22 PM »
no bob. built motor with large fuel lobe cam and upgraded lpfp and larger turbo and supporting bolt ons.

but they were able to fuel it w.o manifold spray...

I would have thought so. Elsewhere I have started a thread asking about power output with PUMPS ONLY. There MUST be a baseline, as everything gets all hazy when "stock" (not using anything but a hpfp, the rail pressure at 2900psi, Large fuel lobe cam, and an aeromotive stealth in the tank) are declared. NOT calling anybody out, just trying to get to a common denominator.
Bob Buxbaum
snaponbob AT comcast DOT net
2007 Redline, Revalved Konis, Crazy alignment
FE3 front and Z0K rear bars, owner installed pwr lock buttons
catless downpipe, SP custom exhaustWester's tune
racing springs and adjustable perches
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Offline Gentleman Jack

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Re: HPFP or in tank pump... whats the real limiting fuel factor?
« Reply #38 on: October 13, 2011, 07:46:50 PM »
It seems that volume is the issues, not pressure.  Could the lines be changed to larger lines allowing more volume of fuel to flow?  Fuel lines are not that difficult to change, especially when compared to removing a pump from the tank and rebuilding / replacing it. 

GJ
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Offline snaponbob

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Re: HPFP or in tank pump... whats the real limiting fuel factor?
« Reply #39 on: October 13, 2011, 08:12:15 PM »
It seems that volume is the issues, not pressure.  Could the lines be changed to larger lines allowing more volume of fuel to flow?  Fuel lines are not that difficult to change, especially when compared to removing a pump from the tank and rebuilding / replacing it. 

GJ

If the pump can not keep up with demand, the existing lines will empty out. Thus, larger lines are not the answer.
Bob Buxbaum
snaponbob AT comcast DOT net
2007 Redline, Revalved Konis, Crazy alignment
FE3 front and Z0K rear bars, owner installed pwr lock buttons
catless downpipe, SP custom exhaustWester's tune
racing springs and adjustable perches
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Offline Gentleman Jack

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Re: HPFP or in tank pump... whats the real limiting fuel factor?
« Reply #40 on: October 13, 2011, 08:29:50 PM »
Bob,

First, as you have posted in another thread, I am not looking to be confrontational.

Second, you start of your answer with IF.  Do you know that the pump can not keep the lines full? The pump may not be able to keep up with demand at the pressure required to push fuel thru a standard size line.  An increase in line size, while maintaining the same pressure when fuel is flowing, equals more fuel.  More fuel is what you are looking for.  To the same point, if you can reduce the friction loss inside the pipe (different pipe material) you may also gain the increase in fuel you are seeking.  To the same end, if a shorter path to the HPFP can be found, that will also increase the volume of fuel as it will reduce the total friction loss accumulated thru distance.  There are many ways to increase the amount of fuel that can move through a pipe / line.  Increasing pressure is only one way.  While sometimes that may be the easiest (tuning for greater pressure) it is often not the most efficient.  Cooling your fuel will increase the density of the fuel, resulting in more power being generated from a given volume, thereby reducing the volume needed to accomplish the power goals you have.  Finding a way to keep your fuel cold on hot days will help as well.  (I don't recommend trying this method.  While the theory is sound, the practice is not, carrying a referigerator will add more weight than the power gained can overcome)



GJ
« Last Edit: October 13, 2011, 08:37:25 PM by Gentleman Jack »
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Offline kennysabarese

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Re: HPFP or in tank pump... whats the real limiting fuel factor?
« Reply #41 on: October 13, 2011, 09:29:24 PM »
I am not responding directly to anyone's comment here.

The way I am thinking about it is this: Pressure is not tangible, it is simply a measurement of something trying to shove something that has volume into something that has a restriction somewhere.

The goal is to keep the fuel rail full so the injectors don't go dry. You need more fuel to do that, aka more volume by having a pump that pumps faster, or moves a larger volume of fuel with each pump.

Pressure is a way to tell if your fuel rail is staying full. It's just a measurement.  You want to put more fuel into the rail and also spray more fuel into the cylinder immediately so the pressure doesn't need to increase to solve the more fuel into the cylinder issue. The pressure is just how the system monitors itself like many other systems in the car. Oil, air in your tires, coolant, fuel in the tank. 

The only two reasons I am aware of that you need more pressure in the fuel rail are to spray fuel more quickly into the cylinder because your can't get enough out during the injection timeframe, or because the cylinder pressure is so high, the fuel is pushed back into the fuel rail when the injector opens. (this is a real problem on DI systems, if you increase the compression ratio of an engine with DI, you may need to increase fuel rail pressure)

The only reason I would see to increase the fuel rail size is if you want to lower your pressure, or if the pump is not strong enough to jam the fuel into the rail, which could be a possibility, but I think it's unlikely since the pump can't keep the current rail full, again an assumption, does the fuel rail pressure drop? I don't know the symptom of running out of fuel.

This all sounds really familiar... like when we talk about larger turbos, volume of air, and PSI, and charge tube size. Same stuff! "turning up the boost" is done by pushing more volume of air into the same space, which requires the turbo to spin faster, and you hit a point where the turbo is spinning at it's max speed and the RPMs increase which is pulling the air the turbo blows more quickly, so the boost drops. Larger turbo is capable of pushing more air per rotation of the turbine resulting in more air into the same space, higher pressure, more air into the cylinder, more fuel into the cylinder, more power. There is an optimal range of size of charge tube based on the amount of air you are flowing that directs the air in the most efficient way from the turbo to the engine, too small and you restrict, too larger and you spend all your energy filling the tube and not getting it through the tube to the cylinders, I assume the same is true with the fuel rail.

Make sense?
« Last Edit: October 13, 2011, 09:35:28 PM by Kenny »
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Offline snaponbob

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Re: HPFP or in tank pump... whats the real limiting fuel factor?
« Reply #42 on: October 13, 2011, 09:50:39 PM »
Here is what apparently is going on under conditions of high fuel demand (i.e. 50-75% increase in injector duty cycle to satisfy increased air flow or E85). 1) The tank pump can't keep up with the fuel rail pump, or 2) the fuel rail pump can not keep the fuel rail filled. PRESSURE assumes some resistance against flow. If the injectors can flow MORE fuel than the HVHP (rail) pump, the pressure DROPS. Why? The rail is emptying out. That is where the high load "limp" comes from - rail pressure drops below ~900psi. Why? Fuel starvation. If the rail pump could flow enough fluid, the rail pressure would not drop !!!!!!! If the rail was bigger without a higher CAPACITY pump, the pressure would fall SOONER.
Bob Buxbaum
snaponbob AT comcast DOT net
2007 Redline, Revalved Konis, Crazy alignment
FE3 front and Z0K rear bars, owner installed pwr lock buttons
catless downpipe, SP custom exhaustWester's tune
racing springs and adjustable perches
DDM ProBeam & Tower brace, CCW 18x11 wheels for racing

Offline kennysabarese

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Re: HPFP or in tank pump... whats the real limiting fuel factor?
« Reply #43 on: October 13, 2011, 10:05:02 PM »
Here is what apparently is going on under conditions of high fuel demand (i.e. 50-75% increase in injector duty cycle to satisfy increased air flow or E85). 1) The tank pump can't keep up with the fuel rail pump, or 2) the fuel rail pump can not keep the fuel rail filled. PRESSURE assumes some resistance against flow. If the injectors can flow MORE fuel than the HVHP (rail) pump, the pressure DROPS. Why? The rail is emptying out. That is where the high load "limp" comes from - rail pressure drops below ~900psi. Why? Fuel starvation. If the rail pump could flow enough fluid, the rail pressure would not drop !!!!!!! If the rail was bigger without a higher CAPACITY pump, the pressure would fall SOONER.

The answer to number one can be found by putting a pressure gauge as DDM Dave suggests in between the tank and engine.
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Offline snaponbob

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Re: HPFP or in tank pump... whats the real limiting fuel factor?
« Reply #44 on: October 13, 2011, 10:24:42 PM »
The answer to number one can be found by putting a pressure gauge as DDM Dave suggests in between the tank and engine.

Or use software to see what the data stream looks like.
Bob Buxbaum
snaponbob AT comcast DOT net
2007 Redline, Revalved Konis, Crazy alignment
FE3 front and Z0K rear bars, owner installed pwr lock buttons
catless downpipe, SP custom exhaustWester's tune
racing springs and adjustable perches
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Offline kennysabarese

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Re: HPFP or in tank pump... whats the real limiting fuel factor?
« Reply #45 on: October 13, 2011, 11:05:14 PM »
You can log the low pressure side?
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Offline snaponbob

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Re: HPFP or in tank pump... whats the real limiting fuel factor?
« Reply #46 on: October 14, 2011, 12:15:38 AM »
Vince was able to see stuff on a scan. How? I don't know. Here is what I DO know --- on 100 octane gas, NEVER a problem and no knock. Smooth all the way to 7000 rpm. E85 started to develop issues above 6200 rpm very soon after the change over. DDM Walbro pump NO change in symptoms. Took a different path and now clean to 6700 rpm. STILL want a higher flow HPHV rail pump. THEN I will put it on a dyno to see what the engine produces. Until then, I will be asking Vince to soften the turbo response between 2900 and 4000, and try to dial it up above there. So far, we are at 22-23 psi up to about 4800-5000 rpm, and 315 Hoosiers struggle with it !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Bob Buxbaum
snaponbob AT comcast DOT net
2007 Redline, Revalved Konis, Crazy alignment
FE3 front and Z0K rear bars, owner installed pwr lock buttons
catless downpipe, SP custom exhaustWester's tune
racing springs and adjustable perches
DDM ProBeam & Tower brace, CCW 18x11 wheels for racing

Offline Gentleman Jack

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Re: HPFP or in tank pump... whats the real limiting fuel factor?
« Reply #47 on: October 14, 2011, 12:18:01 AM »
Here is what apparently is going on under conditions of high fuel demand (i.e. 50-75% increase in injector duty cycle to satisfy increased air flow or E85). 1) The tank pump can't keep up with the fuel rail pump, or 2) the fuel rail pump can not keep the fuel rail filled. PRESSURE assumes some resistance against flow. If the injectors can flow MORE fuel than the HVHP (rail) pump, the pressure DROPS. Why? The rail is emptying out. That is where the high load "limp" comes from - rail pressure drops below ~900psi. Why? Fuel starvation. If the rail pump could flow enough fluid, the rail pressure would not drop !!!!!!! If the rail was bigger without a higher CAPACITY pump, the pressure would fall SOONER.

Bob,
How often and for what duration is this happening?  Is it only at the very peak of rpm, or is it happening for a long duration of pull?  If it is only for a short duration, a small reservoir of fuel just at the pick up point of the HPFP might solve your problem, if in fact it is a problem of the tank pump not being able to keep up with the demand.   The tank pump fills the reservoir during braking, then at the end of the straight, when you need just a little more fuel, it is there.  Might have to figure out how to fight vacuum, but it might solve the issue.


GJ


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Offline miller11386

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Re: HPFP or in tank pump... whats the real limiting fuel factor?
« Reply #48 on: October 14, 2011, 05:21:57 PM »
Idk if its possible gj, but a larger  rail seems,like a plausible fix to me...

Vunce has his own tuning program. He made it. Thats why he can do stuff thats extra sneaky
Check out Miller's Youtube Channel HERE

Offline tazz

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Re: HPFP or in tank pump... whats the real limiting fuel factor?
« Reply #49 on: October 14, 2011, 06:16:49 PM »
Idk if its possible gj, but a larger  rail seems,like a plausible fix to me...

Vunce has his own tuning program. He made it. That's why he can do stuff that's extra sneaky
To a point.
He has unlocked a few more parameters for fueling but he's still limited and knowing how all the tables work together is a different story for most people.  There are people out there that know more about how the ECM tables work with each other.  I just wish those people would get together with everyone to help them achieve there goals as well as the programmers out there to crack more tables.  Just imagine the possibilities if everyone would work together at tackling the Bosch ECM it would be Great.
What gets me is that there is so much more to our ECM and TCM but NO ONE is willing to work together to crack the whole enchilada