Topic: V8 worth the costs?

[ChopTop]

GMTECH since you hold the LNF in such high regard, then why did you decide to switch to a V8?

[Kelu]

Second only to the VAG 2.0T in the RWD / AWD cars.

Show me a RWD VAG car!!!! 



And I can assure you, even if they not in that picture, Skoda and Seat, part of VAG cars, none are RWD.

PS: Except Lambo Balboni and a Bentley model which both are out of discusssion.

[Sol Asylum]

I think he meant the Miata Kelu, that's got to be a VAG car.

[Gentleman Jack]

I think he meant the Miata Kelu, that's got to be a VAG car.

!!!!!

[gmtech16450yz]

GMTECH since you hold the LNF in such high regard, then why did you decide to switch to a V8?

This is a good question, a valid question, and one I feel I need to answer due to ridiculous false comments on another thread here.

Here are some facts in relation to some of the false comments that have been made...

No, my engine did not "Blow up".
No, my exhaust manifold did not crack and "fail horribly".
No, my EFR turbo didn't explode.
No, my tune didn't destroy my engine. (well, in a way it did, it was too good for the rods.)

Here's what really happened to my engine. And no, it wasn't a big "secret". In case some of you hadn't noticed, I don't go online to update everybody every time I brush my teeth or wipe my butt.

One beautiful California weekend I went for a drive to the beach with my son. On the way back I did a 0 to 115mph run, 29psi boost running each gear to 7500rpm. The engine sounded and ran like a r@ped ape. I drove it home and parked it. (I was logging at the time and have the entire run that bent the rods saved.) The next couple days of driving back and forth to work I noticed that the low end was kinda gone, the off boost torque was definitely less than it had been. No other symptoms. On the third day, driving home from work I got on it pretty hard passing someone on the freeway. After letting off it started ticking. I obviously bent the rods further with that load. I drove it home, with the only symptom a slight ticking noise on accel. After running it awhile at home it finally started smoking, but it still ran somewhat ok. I DROVE it into my shop and pulled the head. I immediately noticed that one of the pistons that was supposed to be at tdc was actually about a 1/4 inch below the deck. I turned the motor over and found that 3 of the 4 pistons were noticeably below the top of the deck. Diagnosis time over.

Literally like a day later, one of the race teams I work with asked me if I knew of anyone with an LNF since they needed a motor. I tore the engine down and found no engine damage other than the bent rods. I built the engine with new forged pistons, rings, forged rods and bearings. The race team bought the complete motor and it's since finished several big races. My engine lives on. Somewhere around 500 crank hp for 3 or 4 years, hundreds of 60-100 runs and now full blow racing with some of the best drivers in the business saying the same thing every time they get out of the car... "D@mn this thing is fast!"

So here's the other reasons that I decided to do the V/8...

I don't like 4 bangers. Never have, never will. Sure, the LNF is impressive, but it's still a 4 banger.
I HATED the transmission. And no, I would NOT consider putting a T56 or TR6060 behind an LNF. I think that's lame.
I really don't like most aftermarket parts, and there was too many of them under my hood. (My LSA/TR6060 drivetrain will be 99% stock)
Here's a biggie- MY V/8 SKY WILL BE CALIFORNIA SMOG LEGAL. Ken Kelly will not get his hands on my ECM, I will do all the theft deterrent programming myself. It will not be a hacked ECM/BCM setup, it will be factory stock and fully operational. (MY cruise control WILL work. lol) I will have a brand new, totally dependable, legal, bulletproof drivetrain engineered by GM, not some flaky vendor.

Lastly, I couldn't find a new car that I actually wanted to buy to replace the Sky, for any amount of money. Had the C7 been out when I started this project, I might not have done it. My goal is to make a car that I'll like better than a C7 anyway though, and for WAY WAY less money. My out of pocket at this point is somewhere around $10k. (Yep, $10k after selling all my old parts and buying ALL NEW engine, trans, drive accessories, huge brakes, factory CTS-V parts, etc, etc.) I almost bought a CTS-V Coupe, but didn't because we pretty much already have one of those with our V Wagon. My Sky will end up being a like a little CTS-V Roadster.

That's the story folks. No secrets with me. No BS either. You wanna know something or you have a question? Ask it and I'll give an honest answer. Sorry but it's not my fault if what I say is against what you think or believe or have been told, or makes you look like an idiot. I deal with facts. I get my information by having MY hands on things. I don't get my information from FaceBook. I'm not even on that retarded time suck. Talk about a place for people to tell everyone how great they are. No thanks.

Hope this clears up the BS that's being said about what happened to my particular engine and why I went to a V/8.

[ChopTop]

Thanks for the answer.  Will it have a/c, and will you begin offering V8 conversion? 

[ihawk95]

Thanks for the answer.  Will it have a/c, and will you begin offering V8 conversion? 

I can answer that...No because then he would become a flakey vendor offering V8 conversions.

Sorry...someone had to do it! 

[Sol Asylum]

What's your excusse Ihawk, is your car in the shop for the next year or so too?

[Flaxenfilly23]

Since John has been banned from this group and now knows that I posted on the other thread he asked me to share this last thought on the tubular manifold. Also, in case anyone missed it on the other thread before it was pulled, I now own his old EFR, tubular manifold, 5th injector, etc. Nothing failed, everything works great. Here is his post on the matter:

I think and invitation to the manufacturer of the manifold should be done, this way he can post what has happened.

VERY good comment Alvaro. I emailed Chris at Stainless Headers on Sunday morning, I haven't heard back yet. His business is going like gangbusters and it was the weekend so I didn't expect to hear from him right away anyway. I could give him a call but this isn't really worth bothering him on a phone call. I gave him a link to this thread so hopefully he'll read it and give his input.

Since it looks like there's a few guys that really want to know what happened with the manifold instead of just attacking me, I'll elaborate on the ONLY failure that I have personal knowledge and FACTUAL information on. This didn't come from a FaceBook post.

I was the one that was personally working on the Ziegler/GMG Racing Solstice when they went from the DDM turbo to the EFR. When Jeremy, the Crew Chief on the Ziegler car, was putting the EFR on he had Inconel blankets made for the turbo, exhaust manifold and downpipe. They were beautiful. (I'll post pictures of the blankets on the turbo and manifold tonight when I get home.) I was STRONGLY APPOSED to putting the blankets on. I pretty much begged Jeremy to not wrap the manifold and turbo. Over 40 years of working with many different types of engines, I've NEVER seen any type of header or turbo wraps that didn't cause some sort of damage. It's just not a good idea. Sure it might give you a hp or two, but the risks are not worth it. THERE ISN'T A TURBO EXHAUST MANIFOLD MADE THAT CAN WITHSTAND RACE CONDITIONS WHEN WRAPPED. Are there race engines out there with wrapped headers and turbos? Absolutely. Do they replace the manifolds every race? Most do.

So that's exactly what happened, on our first TWO DAYS on the dyno, the manifold cracked. That was after dozens and dozens of back to back runs over literally 16 hours of dyno time. We were seriously pushing that engine to it's absolute limits. Not so much because we couldn't get it tuned, but because I was also teaching Jeremy everything I knew about HPTuners and tuning an LNF so he could eventually tune it himself. (Which is what happened, Jeremy took over the tuning with a little help from me once in awhile. That was my goal with them, not just to tune the car but to get Jeremy up to speed on LNF tuning and using HPTuners since most of what he'd done to that point was Motec.) The manifold did break pretty much in half, right at the flange. It broke across welds, so weld quality was NOT an issue. Interestingly, one of the other differences in the setup Jeremy did and what I had was he DID put a support under the turbo. I actually had my doubts about that. I believe it might actually be BETTER for the turbo to be able to move around under heat cycles instead of having a hard point to push against and possibly CAUSE fractures from the force. My turbo was only supported at the bottom of the downpipe. His was supported under the turbo. Mine's still going fine with ABSOLUTELY NO SIGNS OF CRACKING OR FATIGUE.

So their next step was to try better materials. They STILL wrapped it. It still cracked. Again, this was after a full day of track testing and abuse by a Pro driver that was turning lap times that would have put him in the top ten of the GT class, not the lower GTS class that Ziegler drives in. Again, not info from FaceBook, I was there at the track. I was doing the tuning. I know what the EGT's were. I saw the manifold with my own eyes.

In the end the only way they got a manifold to last was to finally leave the Inconel wrapping off. Gee, isn't that amazing? So the TRUTH of the ONLY MANIFOLD FAILURE I CAN PROVE is that it was in SEVERE (sorry to yell, just trying to make sure people actually read and understand what I'm typing.) race and dyno conditions, while wrapped up tightly with a full Inconel heat blanket. BTW, Chris at Stainless Headers has also had plenty of experience with wrapping headers. He was also strongly against the Ziegler manifold being wrapped.

The cause of that manifold failure was extreme abuse and overheating the metals caused directly by wrapping the entire manifold, turbo and downpipe, keeping excessive heat in the parts. I'm not going to get into the reasons why Dave Gilbert/Werks Performance is badmouthing this manifold. I will say that there are definite reasons that have nothing to do with the quality of the manifold itself and everything to do with business practices and fulfilling obligations.

I hope this helps clear up the misinformation being spread here and elsewhere. I will post up those pictures later tonight if I get a chance. If anyone has any productive questions, I'm happy to answer any and all as best I can. I will not engage in childish BS from ignorant people that just like to follow like sheep and have no original thoughts of their own.

[Kelu]

BS based on TRUE FACTS
1) You forgot to mention something, this engine, was not stock, it was upgraded, you blew another engine about 3-4 years ago. So to blow an LNF upgraded engine with 400ish hp tells a lot mister mechanic.

2) Somewhere around 500 crank hp for 3 or 4 years,

LoL, 3 -4 years ago you were barely discovering HPTuners, anybody can verify that on HPT Forum, you are EFR for maximum 3 years and definitely not 500 crank hp for 3-4 years, maybe 2-3.

About 3 years ago you had problems and blaming forums when it was to blame something, now you have switched to Facebook. I see a pattern here.

Since John has been banned from this group and now knows that I posted on the other thread he asked me to share this last thought on the tubular manifold. Also, in case anyone missed it on the other thread before it was pulled, I now own his old EFR, tubular manifold, 5th injector, etc. Nothing failed, everything works great. Here is his post on the matter:

He was banned for a reason, posting in his name is kind of rude imho.

[Flaxenfilly23]

If you find it rude so be it. I'm not here to argue with anyone or get drug into this fray. I posted it only because others had assumed it failed hence why he swapped to a V8. Not true as the parts are 100% fine and on my daily driver. The manifold is a work of art and with only 1 known failure. Best case scenario is the guy who builds them comes on and defends his own work.

[SKY888]

 Kelu is correct!

3-4 yrs ago, I had 400whp and a few others such as BTF and greaseyjockey! We are limited by hptuners capabilities and updates.

Gmtech lies so much!

Hptuners doesn't even had all the updates during that time , so how can he have 500hp 4 years ago???
How did even supply enough fuel that time ??? Lol
How did he go around the boost limits and other necessary tables?

He asked me to post something for him here a year or so ago, when he and snaponbob had a heated argument.
I did not post what he asked me to do for him.


He is banned because of a reason.
So please stop posting anything that came from him.

What's the use of him being banned, if you'll just keep posting all the stuff he types on his keyboard?

We don't want to do anything from him, and all his lies, and BS.

Thank you for your cooperation

[Flaxenfilly23]

Wow, just wow. I have met a both of you through Facebook and you both seemed like reasonably nice guys. Yes, GMT asked me to post the info about the manifold and I did so. He did not order me and I in no way am anyone's puppy. The ONLY reason I posted it was I felt it was pertinent information that could affect whether it not someone chose to use that manifold in the future. I absolutely love mine, and would hate for others to shy away from it due to misleading or false information. I have no comment on any of the stuff about him blowing his engine. I dot know enough about it to comment not would I. He can fight his own fights. I guess I shouldn't be surprised I got this response. When mob mentality kicks in anyone is fair game if they are on the "opposing" side. Go ahead and have me banned if you wish. That really is an utterly pathetic threat.

[SKY888]

The cause of that manifold failure was extreme abuse and overheating the metals caused directly by wrapping the entire manifold, turbo and downpipe, keeping excessive heat in the parts. I'm not going to get into the reasons why Dave Gilbert/Werks Performance is badmouthing this manifold. I will say that there are definite reasons that have nothing to do with the quality of the manifold itself and everything to do with business practices and fulfilling obligations.

Dave of Werks wasn't bad mouthing the manifold. He was honest about his experience. Honesty and bad mouthing are totally different.


About turbo wraps, and manifold wraps be the culprit of cracked headers?

Geeez, since my honda days back in 1990s (ram-horn style tubular ss manifold) up to my Gt3582r sky, all of them were wrapped with turbo covers and manifold wraps, none of them had cracked manifolds.

Both my gt30r and gt35r set ups even had swaintech coating on top of turbo blankets and manifold wraps.


That's why on my compound manifold which is a complex tubular manifold made of 321 stainless, I'll continue using swaintech coating and heat blankets and wraps.

[ihawk95]

What's your excusse Ihawk, is your car in the shop for the next year or so too?

Nah...the temptation was too great for me and I couldn't pass up the opening.  But there is truth to my comment as GMT pointed out in his own post and in his previous posts.

I don't know the guy.  He probably does try to help people out...Nikki is a good example.  On the forum, I feel he goes about it the wrong way and it makes him look bad.  I could do without the extra comments, but he feels it necessary.  He wants to be credible (and he very well could be), but the comments take away from that.  Actually, I thought the best post he's had was about what happened with his car and why he's doing his build.

However, he certainly isn't helping out any of the vendors that I can tell.  He's had negative things to say about almost every one of them.  Even Werks who he said he didn't want to say anything bad to hurt Dave's business, but at the same time (a post before or after...can't remember) insinuated Dave's business must be hurting because of his business practices.

After the exchange on the other thread, he then makes the comment about flakey vendors...ChopTop made his comment about offering conversions and I couldn't help, but make mine knowing what he has posted about other vendors.  Why would he want to throw himself into the vendor ring?  He wouldn't.  He says he doesn't like most aftermarket parts.  IIRC, he's fabbing a lot of his own stuff or having it fabbed.  Good for him.  Best of luck to him on his build and I'm sure it will meet or exceed his expectations.  I know another V8 conversion who did it all himself.  The guy is a nurse and put an old school V8 into his car by himself and I believe it was done in his garage.  He did a nice job on it when I saw it last month.

Back to the issue, it seems strange to me that Dave would stop selling a product over 1 failure.  It doesn't make sense to me.  Like most watching these threads, I'm waiting to see if we get more info.

[SKY888]

I respect all the supporting vendors.

With the kappa's dead platform, I'm glad that these vendors still cater to us.
Why hate them ?

I've dealt with Solo, DDM, and werks.

Are their products perfect when delivered to me? Some are, some aren't.

But these vendors mentioned, will do things right to work with the imperfections of the stuff they sent me .  I believe they do these to every kappa owners
That's why I'm glad they are here for us, and the dead platform.
I respect them for the same reasons I mentioned

[Sol Asylum]

Ihawk thanks for saying what I have been thinking everytime I read one of GMtech's novels.

Having three bent rods, hell even one bent rod, in an engine is a failed engine whether someone considers it "blown" or not.  It's still a failed engine.

[SKY888]

Back to the issue, it seems strange to me that Dave would stop selling a product over 1 failure unless.  It doesn't make sense to me.  Like most watching these threads, I'm waiting to see if we get more info.

If I have a business partner that supplies me with products that have issues from customers, I will rather cut that partner. And build my own product to avoid the phone calls/emails of customers that have complaints about that certain product.

If I can avoid aggravations, I will avoid it.

I rather spend my time developing better products that I can stand behind with less custumer complaints

[SKY888]

Ihawk thanks for saying what I have been thinking everytime I read one of GMtech's novels.

Having three bent rods, hell even one bent rod, in an engine is a failed engine whether someone considers it "blown" or not.  It's still a failed engine.

What made me laugh was,when I read something like.... my tune was too superior , that it bent the three rods. I didn't blow the engine tho !

[ChopTop]

Sorry folks I didn't realize the volatility or history discussed in this thread.   Generally I do one of two things when things start going south. 1. Attempt to help get the discussion back on track.  2. Leave when its no use.

Too bad because it was going so well along and a new product was being discussed which may become harder to find in the future.

Can we try and stay focused on facts so that knowledge can be gained, if not they maybe it should be moved to the Deep End or closed.  The funny thing is no ones going to remember this in 20 years.

[elff]

Flaxenfilly

The manifold in question was pulled from production because Werks did not want to deal with more failures.  They have already been quoted as dealing with failures on top of the one you speak about.
Werks would not lie about something they were selling.   They pulled the product because it was a liability to their business and they don't want to sell bad products.

I am very happy you got help from GMT for the parts you bought.  You caught him on a Jekyl day.  Unfortunately, online he is more in a Hyde mode.  There is plenty of evidence of this on SkyRoadster and the Cobalt forum. 

I normally ignore him, but when I was personally attacked, along with 2 vendors products that have been nothing but highly successful, I responded.  If I was not attacked, I would have had nothing to respond. 

I am glad you corrected some incorrect information I posted. 
Now I know the engine failure was 3 bent rods, not the manifold.

I don't know how anyone can quantify 3 bent rods as not being a blown engine.    To me that is semantics.  Just because the block was not damaged, does not mean the engine was not blown.  I consider rod, piston and ring failures a blown engine due to the amount of work required to repair the engine and the inability to continue to the drive the car any farther then limping it home to begin the repairs.
But that's me.

I harbor no I'll feelings for you and respect your opinions and posts and hope this response is received without hostility. 

 

[LatinVenom]

VERY good comment Alvaro. I emailed Chris at Stainless Headers on Sunday morning, I haven't heard back yet. His business is going like gangbusters and it was the weekend so I didn't expect to hear from him right away anyway. I could give him a call but this isn't really worth bothering him on a phone call. I gave him a link to this thread so hopefully he'll read it and give his input.

I hope Chris takes the time to come to the other thread and post his comments.

I am also looking forward to see the kind of design WERKS has done with their NEW cast steel manifold.

[wspohn]

I am glad you corrected some incorrect information I posted. 
Now I know the engine failure was 3 bent rods, not the manifold.

I don't know how anyone can quantify 3 bent rods as not being a blown engine.    To me that is semantics.  Just because the block was not damaged, does not mean the engine was not blown.  I consider rod, piston and ring failures a blown engine due to the amount of work required to repair the engine and the inability to continue to the drive the car any farther then limping it home to begin the repairs.
But that's me.

An engine that bends the connecting rods is blown. The fact that the sides don't come out of the block notwithstanding.  Anyone that says otherwise is dissembling.  Maybe he thinks that the accepted terminology is that 'blown' only applies if bits come out the sides?

I don't recall the thread and whether we are talking about stock rods or after market, but for whatever reason, if they bent the engine was blown/broken whether it still turns or not.  Silly argument, really.  But I'd like to know exactly what did go and why.

[ihawk95]

I respect all the supporting vendors.

With the kappa's dead platform, I'm glad that these vendors still cater to us.
Why hate them ?

I've dealt with Solo, DDM, and werks.

Are their products perfect when delivered to me? Some are, some aren't.

But these vendors mentioned, will do things right to work with the imperfections of the stuff they sent me .  I believe they do these to every kappa owners
That's why I'm glad they are here for us, and the dead platform.
I respect them for the same reasons I mentioned

Exactly.  Not everyone can do their own build, fab their own parts, do their own tuning, etc, etc.  Not every vendor is perfect.  Werks, DDM, Solo (remember the cracked NA headers??)  Like you say, our platform is dead.  We damn well should be supporting them for those of us that would like to keep modding our cars.  If a vendor is bad and there are several bad experiences, then that's one thing.  But to try to say something good about a vendor then in practically the same breath question whether or not their business is in trouble due to their business practices isn't the way to do it.  And...it makes one look shady.

Ihawk thanks for saying what I have been thinking everytime I read one of GMtech's novels.

Having three bent rods, hell even one bent rod, in an engine is a failed engine whether someone considers it "blown" or not.  It's still a failed engine.

I've been holding back on the forums for months from saying that.  I felt it better to stay out of it.  I was about to post it either yesterday or earlier today before GMT got banned, and didn't.  I was already writing it when I realized someone said he was banned.  I haven't even caught up on the posts here yet.  It kinda sucks because from the sounds of it, the guy does help out racing teams and other forum members.  And these people seem pleased with the help from what I can tell.  Plus I actually like the discussion that goes on back and forth when its civil.  There's good info to be had in their once everyone gets past the he said/she said and my kappa is better than your kappa.

Wow, just wow. I have met a both of you through Facebook and you both seemed like reasonably nice guys. Yes, GMT asked me to post the info about the manifold and I did so. He did not order me and I in no way am anyone's puppy. The ONLY reason I posted it was I felt it was pertinent information that could affect whether it not someone chose to use that manifold in the future. I absolutely love mine, and would hate for others to shy away from it due to misleading or false information. I have no comment on any of the stuff about him blowing his engine. I dot know enough about it to comment not would I. He can fight his own fights. I guess I shouldn't be surprised I got this response. When mob mentality kicks in anyone is fair game if they are on the "opposing" side. Go ahead and have me banned if you wish. That really is an utterly pathetic threat.

Nikki...I don't think they want to ban you at all.  That's not how I read it.

Ok I'm going to take a stab at this based on your experience with your manifold.  I'm guessing it was probably either the first one or maybe 2nd one built, yes?  Let's give Dave benefit of the doubt... and that he does know of several failures and that is why he stopped selling this manifold.  If that's the case, then something has to be different between his production pieces and the other headers out there or other production pieces.  I don't know if they were built individually on a per order basis or as a run, or what.  It doesn't sound like the design was different, but maybe something was changed that was thought to be insignificant.  One would think that would be caught though.  Don't know...

Solo struggled with their 2.4 header for some time.  I remember there were several that cracked including my friend's.  Can't remember what the root cause was for that one.  I think they eventually fixed the problem, but seems like they stopped selling them for awhile until they solved it.

[LatinVenom]

John (Sorry Bill) those were his stock rods to my understanding.
I think he is using the not blown comment since there was no hole in engine and it was still functioning albeit in very need to be rebuild.