Topic: Well here goes... My first Auto X

[Treeman]

Yep.  Just about settled in enough to come out and play at this point.  

We landed in Maryland again.  Living way out in New Market and commuting to Ft. Meade (you said you were from around here in MD, originally, if I'm not mistaken, Bob) I've been leaving at different times in the mornings, and have so far been plesantly surprised to find that traffic is a relative non-issue on my commute.  I can handle the distance so long as I'm not snarled in a parking lot.

Thanks for the reminder to update my profile

Ah!  I bet it is you I have seen a couple of times in the Sykesville area.  I've been in an Aggresive GXP.

Won't know if I'm going until tomorrow night so if I miss it - good luck all and have fun! 

[Uranium-238]

A few questions...

I plan on leaving just about everything I normally keep in the car at home. I'm assuming they'll let you run with the run flat kit latched down in the trunk, correct?

On that note, will we be able to have someone keep an eye on our stuff? I intend on using said run-flat kit to adjust the air pressure in my tires, and if I can't run with it I'd need to leave it somewhere where it won't walk.

What air pressure should I run? I've still got the lousy stock tires.

If I can get an alignment done tomorrow, should I? Would it be wise to A/X the car with a setup that I'd be that unfamiliar with?

While we're at it, what's a good alignment setup for the stock suspension/tires? (well, stock apart from the rear ZOK bar...)

[1LILNDN]

U I can bring my little 12 volt Pump. Not the 1 that comes in the car. works well just plug it it into lighter port or anything w/12 volts.

 Treeman , you just got vto come :  Its called Support the Kappas and Ben   

 C U All on Saturday.

[Uranium-238]

Well, I'll bring mine if I can run with it. If not, I'll really appreciate you letting me use your air pump.

[Ben L]

A few questions...

I plan on leaving just about everything I normally keep in the car at home. I'm assuming they'll let you run with the run flat kit latched down in the trunk, correct?

On that note, will we be able to have someone keep an eye on our stuff? I intend on using said run-flat kit to adjust the air pressure in my tires, and if I can't run with it I'd need to leave it somewhere where it won't walk.

What air pressure should I run? I've still got the lousy stock tires.

If I can get an alignment done tomorrow, should I? Would it be wise to A/X the car with a setup that I'd be that unfamiliar with?

While we're at it, what's a good alignment setup for the stock suspension/tires? (well, stock apart from the rear ZOK bar...)

Yes, if the kit is secured, it is not a problem.  I run with the top down, and tech with it down too.  The trunk inspection usually goes no further than a glance, and the kit is invisible anyway.

Everyone has a little pile of stuff in the paddock.  I have never had anything stolen.  Plus, it looks like there will be some of our bros spectating.  I would not worry about yer stuff.  Obviousoly, I would not leave an expensive camera or something just lying around.  No sense tempting anyone.

Tire pressure will increase with runs, and it is unheard of nearly to have to add air between runs.  Because you have street stock tires, you will need to overinflate, so between runs or going home, either way, you will be bleeding off air, not adding it.  I have a racing gauge with a bleed valve.

You will have to experiment, and I don't know what pressures you run normally. Some people really air up street tires a lot.  But when I was running those on the GXP I usually started at 38 in the front and 36 in the rear, and see what happens.  You want additional air to stiffen the sidewall a bit.

My view on the alignment is that the car turned and tracked better overall even in daily driving with a more aggressive alignment than stock.  To the extent you notice any difference, it will be positive, and I do not think there will be any extended "learning curve."  The way you are supposed drive in autocross would get you popped for reckless on the street, so I am guessing the feelings are going to be pretty new anyway.  Any help the stock tires can get is worthwhile.  If you keep toe near zero, you will not have any weird tire wear issues.

I run 2.3 negative camber front, 1.5 negative rear, +/- .75

Caster (per Z0K specs.)  front 7.75 +/-.5  rear 4.0 +/-.5

Zero toe front and rear.  On street tires (just not the stockers).

Goat calls this the "B0K" alignment.  I like it, and I think he does too.

Remember, just relax and have fun.  This is your first time out, and fancy car setup stuff can wait.  That said, all the things you are thinking about are valid concerns.

[Critterman]

Hey Ben, long pants and long sleeves required?  I have my depends for the ride along, just want to make sure I'm covered.

[Ben L]

No.  You'll want shorts and short sleeves.  Its most of the day with no shelter.  Its not a track deal.  I read PCA CH's rules.  It says no passengers.  But maybe that mean competitors trying to get a look at the course. We'll just have to see.

[Critterman]

Thanks,

[lil goat]

Yes I am very happy with the B0K alignment, it works. I have noticed since I installed the Z0K bar the rear sticks to well. I have to crank up the damping a bit to loosen it up tonight. I am a Drifter a heart you know, got to have the back end loose. I will air up a bit before leaving the house, but most likely will need more in the Bridgestones, they do have a VERY stiff sidewall, so much so several places could not even mount them. I am psyched, this is going to be fun.

[snaponbob]

You guys simply do not know what you are missing with zero toe. TRUST ME, if you want the car to come alive, you'l at a minimum toe out the front at the event. With a 22mm and 13mm wrench, it is simple to do before you run and zero it before you go home. If you want to know how, ask here, and I'll tell you. Really, it reallt REALLY works.

[Ben L]

You guys simply do not know what you are missing with zero toe. TRUST ME, if you want the car to come alive, you'l at a minimum toe out the front at the event. With a 22mm and 13mm wrench, it is simple to do before you run and zero it before you go home. If you want to know how, ask here, and I'll tell you. Really, it reallt REALLY works.

Toe out makes a really dramatic difference on turn in, but I find it a bit squirrely on the street, which is where my GXP lives most of the time. 

But Bob is proposing switching back before driving home, so he's addressed that concern. 

I suppose its just a matter of marking the steering rack tie rods thread existing setting, loosening the jam nut, and pushing the adjusting nut a few threads out.  Then restoring the original settings before going home.

Someone should take Bob up on those instructions.  Bob, fire away. 

[lil goat]

I have the B0K and it's not squirrelly , I am but the cars not. I had it set that way when we went out 211.

[Ben L]

My BOK recipe is zero toe, suitable for street.  Toe out does help autoxing.

[snaponbob]

Even with a lot of camber, if toe is zero on the street the additional wear will be minimal.

Here is the easy toe adjustment method. Again, you will need a 22mm wrench and a 13mm wrench.

Front - back off the jam nut on the left front tie rod. Back out the adjuster 3/4 of a turn. Snug down the jam nut. Poof !!!!!!!!!!!! 3/16" toe out. No need to worry about the right front adjuster as the rack self adjusts which you will see in a slightly cocked steering wheel. The car will NOT pull. End of day, screw IN the adjuster 3/4 turns. Zero toe and straight steering wheel. (Hint, if you leave the event with a cocked steering wheel you a) screwed the adjuster OUT further and the wheel will be MORE cocked, or b) you're as stupid as I have been and FORGOT to zero the front.  )

Rear - 2.4's DON'T do this. You don't have enough power to need this. Toeing IN the rear will help nail down the rear under power. Only a VERY modest tweak will make a serious difference. Undo the jam nuts on BOTH sides. Turn each adjuster out ONLY one flat. THAT'S IT. You will now have a bit more than 1/16" toe in. You will feel it more on asphalt than on concrete due to the differences in grip. Since there are no real "tell tales" at the steering wheel be careful to make sure the rear adjustments are done properly or you could get the car tracking wrong.

To avoid spending money for repeated alignments (just to be sure) a) buy a Longacre toe plate set and learn to use them, and b) learn to "string" your car. The toe plates will allow you to measure your work if you like and this can be good info. (You'll also impress the hell out of yourself !!!!!!!!!!!!!!) Learning to "string" your car is SO easy -------------- after the first time. (If you think you were cool after the toe plates, you just don't know how cool you are until you PROPERLY string your car. Nobody else will give a rat's ass, but being cool ain't easy!!) You'll need four jack stands, some yellow fly fishing line, a flat surface in the shade (preferably), and a 6" metal ruler from a craft shop. CAUTION !!!!!!!!!! The rear track is 3/4" wider than the front and must be factored in when lining up the strings because the left and right strings MUST be parallel to each other and "square" to the car. If you own the Pontiac Performance book (and you really should - it's a very good reference) this is all covered. It takes about 30 minutes to "string" a Kappa once you have done it a couple times.

So, there you go.

[lil goat]

Or if you are just starting out and really don't care about being competitive and just want to have fun, ignore all of this stuff like I am going to do and go have fun. Bob you are trying to make this way to complex for someone who has never even tried it, if we try it and we like it this may be some excellent advice. I love carving canyons, that's what I do with my car this is just something I want to try, not make a big production out it. I may absolutely suck!

[Treeman]

Well, the stars aligned and I will be there to watch y'all.  

[DeepBlueGXP]

Ya'll come to Gilligan's if you get done early, I'll have my cell, give me a buzz

[snaponbob]

Or if you are just starting out and really don't care about being competitive and just want to have fun, ignore all of this stuff like I am going to do and go have fun. Bob you are trying to make this way to complex for someone who has never even tried it, if we try it and we like it this may be some excellent advice. I love carving canyons, that's what I do with my car this is just something I want to try, not make a big production out it. I may absolutely suck!

Settle down. Ben asked, and I responded. You like "blunt", so here is blunt. Do whatever you want to do. DILLIGAF? Because YOU do not want to know does not mean others may not get something out of what I posted. Although I have never met you, I am pretty sure you are really good people. But YOUR yardstick is not EVERYBODY'S yardstick. Therefore, 

[Ben L]

Easy everybody.  I did ask.  The info is good and now its out there.  This site is about getting the dope about performance, and by golly, this is exactly that.  

No pressure to do anything, except get out there and have fun.  If you don;t want to toe out, then don't.  No big deal.

This is all supposed to be fun.  Its fine to ease into stuff like parking lot alignments.  But its also a helpful reference to have.

For tomorrow, just keep it simple.  Torque your lugnuts, bring sunscreen and a chair, and let's have a blast.  

[Uranium-238]

Looks like I'm all set. Everything is out of the car expect for the registration/insurance cards, my helmet, a hat, sunglasses, something to make numbers with, my camera and mount, and a cooler for the Gatorade.

How does lunch work? We supposed to bring something, or do they break for lunch so we can fend for ourselves?

[lil goat]

Yes I like blunt, am I a good person not really I piss most people off and don't care, I doubt you would like me. This at least started as a beginners thread by U 238, I appreciated it. helped me prep and remember to clean out the car and bring a helmet. Bob you are an expert and I guess want us to enjoy this as much as you, you are just a bit overwhelming with the advice, and almost scared me away from even trying. Let us try and negotiate the track at least once before we start making adjustments and buying better tires. I may not ever do this again, or I may get addicted. For me at least give me a chance, I have never even been to an auto cross much less driven even one. Remember you were new once too. If I have questions I know who to ask, but don't overwhelm me just yet.

[snaponbob]

Yes I like blunt, am I a good person not really I piss most people off and don't care, I doubt you would like me. This at least started as a beginners thread by U 238, I appreciated it. helped me prep and remember to clean out the car and bring a helmet. Bob you are an expert and I guess want us to enjoy this as much as you, you are just a bit overwhelming with the advice, and almost scared me away from even trying. Let us try and negotiate the track at least once before we start making adjustments and buying better tires. I may not ever do this again, or I may get addicted. For me at least give me a chance, I have never even been to an auto cross much less driven even one. Remember you were new once too. If I have questions I know who to ask, but don't overwhelm me just yet.

Fair enough. As for the self appraisal, maybe we can all help with the (probably false) self loathing !!!!!!!! We should have a new section in this site titled "Why we WILL hate lil goat & and why he should own a Checker instead of a Sol". As for the "excess information", if one goes to a book store, there is no requirement to buy everything. Same with a restaurant, in that you don't have to order ALL the entrees. Pick what YOU want. And everybody else can do the same. THIS site is supposed to be about, ummm, Performance. No compudic777s here, thank god.

[GregGXP]

Maybe we could have a couple stickies in this forum. How about an AutoX 101 or AutoX for beginners, then an intermediate (if appropriate) and finally an advanced. At least it would make it easier for those wanting information to focus only on what they need. Just a thought.   

[snaponbob]

Maybe we could have a couple stickies in this forum. How about an AutoX 101 or AutoX for beginners, then an intermediate (if appropriate) and finally an advanced. At least it would make it easier for those wanting information to focus only on what they need. Just a thought.   

I hate good suggestions. So, I hate that a lot because it's a GREAT suggestion. Only thing is, how can we get lil goat NOT to look at it?       

[Critterman]

We can get Joe, to hide it from him.  Well we are back, I didn't drive just watch, and it is a lot easier from the hill top than the driver's seat.  They didn't allow ride allongs so I wore my depends for naught.

there were some good drivers and some great drivers there.  Uranium did himself proud with his stock Sky, Goat ended up throwing a fuel rail low pressure CEL so he didn't get to do his last two rounds.  Ben put on a demonstration on how to enter the stop box, and his buddy in the Cobra just plain kicked butt. 

I was half way there before I realized I had forgotten my movie camera so I won' tell any tales.