Topic: Spec FW with HOT SPOTS???

[SKY888]

I received the Spec Clutch kit 3+ and Spec FW last December 2009.

It was installed fine, and I religiously broke-in the clutch for 1000 miles, and lots of stop and go traffic.

After the clutch was broken in.............. the 2nd gear ...then 1st gear started to grind.   So I stopped using the car and left it at SMG shop.   

When the clutch and FW were removed a few days ago, I saw that the FW has small HOT SPOTS (about 8-10 of them less than 1 cm).  Some reasons for getting these hot spots are: riding the clutch, popping the clutch at high rpms, and etc.

I didnt do all of them, since I was breaking-in the clutch all along.

So I was wondering what might be some of the reasons why the FW start developing hot spots?

Also, since the FW is already out, should I resurface/machine it to remove the small hot spots?   Then have it balanced afterwards?   

I know that sometimes even with resurfacing this FW, and you don't see the visible hot spots anymore, that doesnt mean that the hot spots are gone.

or just get a new FW?


I'm hesitating to get a new FW, since my current FW is basically new.

thoughts??

[Kelu]

My thoughts are kind of mixed now, I was about to order a Spec clutch Stage 3+ and Spec flywheel, now I'm confused.

Having those things on daily driving and no racing at all is strange.

All I know is that any resurfaced fw needs balancing also. These parts don't have warranty?

[snaponbob]

Not speaking negatively of the Spec FW, but the Fidanza has a replaceable friction surface !!!! And THAT is why I like it. The issue with hot spots is that the underlying metal has been too hot, and may be liable to create hot spots again. I would STRONGLY suggest that you call Spec and have a chat with THEM. We may have opinions, but THEY produce the product and SHOULD have some facts at hand. With sponsorship, they should be willing to go the extra mile for you. 

[SKY888]

yeah, calling SPEC on Monday.

I wana see first what you guys thoughts so I have more knowledge in this whole thing.

My mechanic said that we can resurface the FW, but I don't want to find out later on, that the underlying metal still has some hot spots that we can't visually see.    Only way to find out on that is test to test the hardness of the metal at different spots.  But might be hard now since you cant really visually spot where the old "hot spots" used to be.......

I also found out about the Fidanza FW, having that replaceable friction surface, which is awesome.  

So let's see what SPEC has to say.........

[Kelu]

Keep us updated

[spider]

The hot spots were probably caused buy the clutch slave or master not fully disengaging the clutch,  which is why 1st & 2nd were grinding. If the clutch slave accordion boot isn't filled with fluid, the master is leaking internally or down your carpet. There would be no fluid loss if the master is leaking internally. If you have been pampering it for the last 1K & it started out not grinding 1st or 2nd I would have thrown a new master on before yanking the tranny. Wouldn't have known about the hot spots though! 

[snaponbob]

I just recalled that 888 may be using the non-SAC set up. If so, resurfacing the flywheel may not be an option as there is NO provision for adjusting the non-SAC. BTW, in this case, hydraulic actuation may not be able to make up for the missing metal on the FW. I am NOT sure about this, but asking Spec about this is better than finding out after the transmission is back in the car. That would certainly be a            moment for sure.

[Gentleman Jack]

That would certainly be a           moment for sure.

I think this is a record for SOB.  The most emoticons used in one post by SOB...  I think 1LILNDN is rubbing off on you......  

[snaponbob]

I think this is a record for SOB.  The most emoticons used in one post by SOB...  I think 1LILNDN is rubbing off on you...... 

Careful. You are tempting me. You may have 

Yup, that will do for now. Gotta go.

[1LILNDN]

I think this is a record for SOB.  The most emoticons used in one post by SOB...  I think 1LILNDN is rubbing off on you......  

GJ ; Try and keep the Post on track <-----Stop hijacking Threads if Comment is not Related to Post.           

[Gentleman Jack]

Sorry....

What else are we supposed to do in this thread right now?  After all, we are all waiting until Monday when Sky888 gets a chance to talk to SPEC about his flywheel.  Obviously, we are hoping SPEC steps up and offers to replace or recondition his flywheel and that his hot spots are an anomally.  They also will hopefully tell him that if it happens again, they will cover the costs of pulling the flywheel and replacing the whole set up with a better one.  That way, he can put his power to the ground and shake the earth with it.

GJ

[Sol Asylum]

Another thing to consider/check is that the clutch slides free on the input shaft.  If there was some binding then it could explain what you are seeing.  The hydraulics could be doing their job and the pressure plate is actually disengaging properly but the clutch is still rubbing on the flywheel you will get hot spots and the input shaft will still be driven enough to cause the gears to grind.  The bad news here would be that you didn't have the grinding from the beginning because the syncros were doing their job but they could be worn so that they aren't able to do their job now.

[SKY888]

The hot spots were probably caused buy the clutch slave or master not fully disengaging the clutch,  which is why 1st & 2nd were grinding. If the clutch slave accordion boot isn't filled with fluid, the master is leaking internally or down your carpet. There would be no fluid loss if the master is leaking internally. If you have been pampering it for the last 1K & it started out not grinding 1st or 2nd I would have thrown a new master on before yanking the tranny. Wouldn't have known about the hot spots though!  

yeah,  after my clutch broken-in..........it was fine for a while, then 2nd gear started grinding.   I drove it for a month still.  I shifted from 1st to 3rd gear all the time, and avoided the 2nd gear.  Then the day came, when going to 1st gear started to grind...so I decided to just drop off the car at the shop .....and bought a POS car for the winter.

I am really hoping that the grinding issue is caused by a bad  Clutch Actuator.

But since we're pulling out the engine for my compound project, and removing stuff to be cryoed......we might as well check the tranny to see if any gears/hubs are messed up.  I might as well have them shot peened and cryoed for durability purposes.

[SKY888]

Yes Bob, I have non-SAC clutch.

Im already leaning towards, just asking for a new FW at this point.......instead of having the FW re-surfaced since the hot spots might not be visible but still present on the FW.....or will just show up later on once the car is up and running.

Might as well do things PROPER now........than do the job twice.

[SKY888]

Another thing to consider/check is that the clutch slides free on the input shaft.  If there was some binding then it could explain what you are seeing.  The hydraulics could be doing their job and the pressure plate is actually disengaging properly but the clutch is still rubbing on the flywheel you will get hot spots and the input shaft will still be driven enough to cause the gears to grind.  The bad news here would be that you didn't have the grinding from the beginning because the syncros were doing their job but they could be worn so that they aren't able to do their job now.

True!

that's why we pulled out the tranny......to check everything and replace things that are worn out.

And have them shot peened and cryo-treated........and polished.    To make them last longer.....and for smoother shifting as well

[SKY888]

Sorry....

What else are we supposed to do in this thread right now?  After all, we are all waiting until Monday when Sky888 gets a chance to talk to SPEC about his flywheel.  Obviously, we are hoping SPEC steps up and offers to replace or recondition his flywheel and that his hot spots are an anomally.  They also will hopefully tell him that if it happens again, they will cover the costs of pulling the flywheel and replacing the whole set up with a better one.  That way, he can put his power to the ground and shake the earth with it.

GJ

basically, I will just ask SPEC if "resurfacing" is an option on my set-up.

I do not think that their products failed on me.

The bad clutch actuator might be the cause of the grinding of the gears...........and also early development of hot spots on the flywheel due to rubbing of clutch to the flywheel.

I'll be very happy though.....if they send me a new FW

[snaponbob]

Question - when coming off the floor, where does the clutch start to engage, and conversely when pushing on the pedal where do you feel the resistance?

[SKY888]

Question - when coming off the floor, where does the clutch start to engage, and conversely when pushing on the pedal where do you feel the resistance?

Honestly, the last time I drove my car was around June-July 2010, not really sure.

But I believe, when pushing the pedal, the resistance is probably present after an .5" to an inch of depression and vice versa.

[spider]

I got hot spots on my flywheel from clutch slippage due to a dry input shaft twice keeping the clutch from engaging !SMELLY! for a few days.
Shot peening, cryro & polish but not coating the tranny gears, shafts, selector forks, input shaft etc. For the lunar chariot they skipped all but the coating! I would have done all but the shot peening , it moves too much metal around. Coated transmission gears rock. Excellent way to reduce friction generated heat & re coup driveline losses plus the contact points on the gears  progressively match one another at a more forgiving rate (burnishing rather than galling) Same as polishing but better & the combo really works well.You could easily surpass the
cobalts driveline losses.  

[SKY888]

Never really heard of coated transmission.  But that's good to know! 

the place that I'll be sending my transmission does the ff:
 

THERMAL STABILIZATION
PROCESS: Heat treat draw to reduce stress.
RESULT: More resistance to surface fractures.

 

SHOT PEEN
PROCESS: Action that converts tensile stress (bad stress) into compressive stress (good stress).
RESULT: Higher load capacity.

 

SURFACE ENHANCEMENT
PROCESS: High energy, extremely uniform finishing process that microscopically blends peaks and valleys of surface finishes.
Unlike other surface enhancement processes our method does not alter gear involute form, resulting in uncompromised integrity.
RESULT: Reduced surface friction.

[spider]

Understood, normal shot peening ---not good for gears.

Honestly, the last time I drove my car was around June-July 2010, not really sure.

But I believe, when pushing the pedal, the resistance is probably present after an .5" to an inch of depression and vice versa.

OFF the floor, not the in inital tension when pushing the pedal down.

[SKY888]

oooooopssss.......

off the floor, clutch engagement is instant

[SKY888]

when you say coating......are you talking about?


CT-16 Manganese Phosphating - which is .35mil - .40 mil typical coating thickness

or

CT-10 Dry Film Lubricating Coating - which is .5mil-.6 mil typical coating thicknss


they're kinda thick....don;t you think?   or not?
since you're saying that shot peening ........will cause metal around.

[snaponbob]

Honestly, the last time I drove my car was around June-July 2010, not really sure.

But I believe, when pushing the pedal, the resistance is probably present after an .5" to an inch of depression and vice versa.

Are you saying that you had to use the entire travel of the pedal to engage and disengage the clutch? That does not sound correct at all. If the clutch action starts either at either end of the travel, something is very wrong.

On a manual (mechanical clutch vs hydraulic) clutch, if the pedal action starts real high then the clutch is adjusted too tight. Not a problem until there is some wear, and then slip will start. If the clutch action is real low, the shifting action will be bad and (you guessed it) gears will grind. 

[spider]

I'm talking about a dry film lubricant thats 1/2 tho. moly based with binders . As far as I know it is only available at Polymer Dynamics hense the reason it beat out all the others & was chosen by Nasa for the Chariot. We normally use it for bearings with unbelieveable results. The smart race teams & individuals use it in transmissions & the input shaft (clutch dust sticks to greasy stuff)
I used a' brush on wipe off, thin film of anti seize on my input shaft because I wasn't willing to go into my tranny when replacing my engine. If you like I will talk to Carl about sponsorship being he recently dropped Grave Digger. If so get your notes together & I will tell him & send you his direct e-mail address.