Topic: Pilot Super Sport vs. Potenza S04

[2kwk4u]

Right now Tirerack has Bridgestone Potenza S04s for $166 ea. and Michellin Pilot Super Sports for $221 ea. (but there is a $70 rebate).  In the 2012 Car and Driver tire test (linked below), these two tires rated 2nd and 1st, respectively. 

http://www.caranddriver.com/comparisons/monsters-of-grip-nine-summer-performance-tires-tested-comparison-test

I've heard a lot about the Michellins, but are they truly  worth $200 more for the set?  Opinions?  Anyone have the Bridgestones?

[Kelu]

I have no info about S04s.

Opel GT comes from factory with Bridgestone Potenza RE050A and I thought they are medium tires but I wasn't thinking that I put over 400tq on them.
After I have switched to Michelins Pilot Sport 2, indeed they were 245/40/18 instead of 245/45/18 but I wasn't impressed compared with RE050A, a little better in the rain.
This year I switched to SuperSports and I like them most, they are better even than Potenza RE050A, they are very nice tires, but I drove Kenny's Kappa with Dunlop * Specs and I was impressed by those which are not sold in EU

I don't know if they worth the difference, I payed over 1000$ for a set and it was best price in the whole country

[2kwk4u]

I'm coming from Star Specs, which aren't available anymore.  Dunlop replaced them with Direzza Star Spec II's, but they don't offer them in 245/45/18.

[critter]

Right now Tirerack has Bridgestone Potenza S04s for $166 ea. and Michellin Pilot Super Sports for $221 ea. (but there is a $70 rebate).  In the 2012 Car and Driver tire test (linked below), these two tires rated 2nd and 1st, respectively. 

http://www.caranddriver.com/comparisons/monsters-of-grip-nine-summer-performance-tires-tested-comparison-test

I've heard a lot about the Michellins, but are they truly  worth $200 more for the set?  Opinions?  Anyone have the Bridgestones?

I have 4 Michelin PSSs coming. I'll let you know. I stepped up to 255/40/18s though. Dave Gilbert is my tire advisor and a good friend works at Michelin...Wahooooo

[kwtoxman]

Don't take that test as gospel. I'd use it as a general comparo for the avg person in street use.

The Michelin PSS are great street tires, but bad track tires. Just keep that in mind if one is doing HPDE. Frankly the S04 is no better a track tire either.

On the street I'd be quite happy with either the PSS or S04. The performance difference is minor enough that it shouldn't matter on the street. So if you want to save some money, the S04 on special is a good option imo.

The Z1 star spec is a great tire, street and track. You can call tirerack and ask them if the Z2 will be coming in the 245/45/18 option soon. Since the Z1 star spec recently ended its production run and remaining 245/45/18 sizing sold out I'd guess Dunlop will be producing Z2 in that size soon. They may have some info on that.

[2kwk4u]

Don't take that test as gospel. I'd use it as a general comparo for the avg person in street use.

The Michelin PSS are great street tires, but bad track tires. Just keep that in mind if one is doing HPDE. Frankly the S04 is no better a track tire either.

On the street I'd be quite happy with either the PSS or S04. The performance difference is minor enough that it shouldn't matter on the street. So if you want to save some money, the S04 on special is a good option imo.

The Z1 star spec is a great tire, street and track. You can call tirerack and ask them if the Z2 will be coming in the 245/45/18 option soon. Since the Z1 star spec recently ended its production run and remaining 245/45/18 sizing sold out I'd guess Dunlop will be producing Z2 in that size soon. They may have some info on that.

Good idea!  I e-mailed to find out.  I'm in no rush.  If they don't reply by mid-week, I'll pick up the phone (because I'll finally be back in 'Murica then).

One silly distinction that the Dunlops have, that really shouldn't matter as much as it does to me, is that they just LOOK so cool/aggressive compared to either the PSS or S04.  That's more the icing on the cake, though.  Performance is key, and I love my Z1s, but they've seen better days.  Couldn't take advantage of the closeout b/c I didn't have a shipping address in the U.S. at the time that was anywhere near where I would actually NEED the tires.

[Critterman]

Did you ask anyone?  I'm sure Joe would have stored them for you   Maybe even someone closer to home.

[2kwk4u]

Nah.  I didn't do that much looking into it at the time, and thought I'd want to try a set of PSS next.  I got a non-answer back from TireRack...  "Thank you for the inquiry. Unfortunately we do not have any information on what sizes and when it will be available."

I don't remember how far down the ones I have on there are.  They might make it through the rest of the summer/fall.  Depends on how many autox events I get to.  I suspect probably not many this year anyway.

[Gentleman Jack]

Tires are silly. Get warp drive.

[FieroVin]

One of the guys in our local group here has the Pilots and he really likes them.  I'll also put in a good word for the Continental Extreme Contact DW.  I put those on last year and have no complaints, the ratings are on par with the Pilots but the price is more in line with the Bridgestones.  My other option would have been the Michelin PSS.  I've never been much of a Bridgestone fan, had some on a G8 and they wore out incredibly fast.

[critter]

One of the guys in our local group here has the Pilots and he really likes them.  I'll also put in a good word for the Continental Extreme Contact DW.  I put those on last year and have no complaints, the ratings are on par with the Pilots but the price is more in line with the Bridgestones.  My other option would have been the Michelin PSS.  I've never been much of a Bridgestone fan, had some on a G8 and they wore out incredibly fast.

I had the Continental Extreme Contact DWs on the previous Redline that was totaled and liked them. I'd get them again but given the circumstances the Michelin PSSs are cheaper and I can go up to 255s. I'll try these and go from there...

[Treeman]

Don't take that test as gospel. I'd use it as a general comparo for the avg person in street use.

The Michelin PSS are great street tires, but bad track tires. Just keep that in mind if one is doing HPDE. Frankly the S04 is no better a track tire either.

On the street I'd be quite happy with either the PSS or S04. The performance difference is minor enough that it shouldn't matter on the street. So if you want to save some money, the S04 on special is a good option imo.

The Z1 star spec is a great tire, street and track. You can call tirerack and ask them if the Z2 will be coming in the 245/45/18 option soon. Since the Z1 star spec recently ended its production run and remaining 245/45/18 sizing sold out I'd guess Dunlop will be producing Z2 in that size soon. They may have some info on that.

That is contrary to my experience, Tire Racks tests and customer reviews (which is where I go to answer questions like this) and conversions with many friends who have run the PSS' on the track. I am on my second set (would have liked the z2s but had the same problem). They are great for street (wet and dry), autocross, and the track.

Don't know anything about the other tires.

[kwtoxman]

That is contrary to my experience, Tire Racks tests and customer reviews (which is where I go to answer questions like this) and conversions with many friends who have run the PSS' on the track. I am on my second set (would have liked the z2s but had the same problem). They are great for street (wet and dry), autocross, and the track.

Don't know anything about the other tires.

I posted that info for the benefit of the community. IMO there are better sources than those for specific tire feedback in the AX and track environments.

Have you read that tire review article? There is a very basic shortcoming with that Tire Rack test for people who AX and track that make the results of limited use at best for those applications. Can you see what it is?

In my research I see significant experience out there showing that the PSS is not good on the track, if fast or often out there. There is a reason that tire is not in the extreme performance category. And when reading about the PSS, if not discussing issues, you will see many other people post that there are better track and AX tires than the PSS. Common sense imo.

The PSS is a great street tire though. Probably the best. Just don't drink the super tire kool-aid.

Here are a few examples of the PSS issues people have had at the track. There is more, but people can find and read them on their own. The reports come from people with significant track experience. And they back up their feedback with pictures to prove that there is more than just talk. Essentially the sidewall is too soft for fast track use. And if you bump up the pressures to minimize sidewall flex then the tire becomes easy to overheat. People have discussed various camber and pressure settings and it didn't alleviate the problems. And one observes that those people have not had the same issues with other more track-oriented tires.

And I've spent enough time on this top so no more link sharing for the AX side. But one can look for themselves. The PSS is not really on the radar screen as any kind of player/competition in the AX scene for winning. Go check out various AX forums and see what tire the enthusiasts, drivers and winners are using and recommending to win their car classes.


A good read here. Multiple posters with similar experience.
http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=816915
(2 weeks old; ~500 easy street miles) 1 track weekend; -3 camber...)


Another. Yes, that is the sidewall that completely separated from the tire


After 12 laps, 3 hot laps at a time.






http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9416790
One track day

[Treeman]

For pure autocross or track, I agree. For a mainly street tire with some autocrossing for fun and occasional HPDE, I beg to differ. I was considering the audience and that for most of us these are daily drivers.

[Treeman]

By the way, several of us were on PSSs on the track yesterday -up to 90 miles. Our tires were fine. Those pics look like tires from cars with suspension problems.

[kwtoxman]

My original input was qualified noting track/AX use, as I don't assume who the audience is.

I know many kappa owners who use the car regularly at HPDE. And for many of them it is a DD as well. So with the qualifier noted, it is obvious to me this advice applies to many kappa owners.

The issue is more than from "pure AX or track". Those posts are not from pure AX or track cars. They are street cars driven on the track and AX. And considering much of the PSS issues shown in the pictures are from a single HPDE at the track, I think it is wise to not bother with the PSS if doing any track HPDE other than a parade lap or taking it relatively easy.

You're own track experience doesn't mean much, that's a very small part of the overall picture of experience, and it does not refute the issues shown by some. Some people don't have any problems with the PSS, but obviously some do. As I said, there are fast people and there are slow people. Instead of rolling the dice, I suggest to the forum that people get a better tire when doing HPDE.

Cars with suspension problems. What weak sauce. Those threads discuss the car set-up in detail, aren't from track newbies or crap cars. They are some of the most comprehensive tire feedback posts I've seen by going into a lot of detail.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and you're welcome to disagree. It doesn't make any sense and it contradicts the issues shown. But to each their own.

[kwtoxman]

Nah.  I didn't do that much looking into it at the time, and thought I'd want to try a set of PSS next.  I got a non-answer back from TireRack...  "Thank you for the inquiry. Unfortunately we do not have any information on what sizes and when it will be available."

Contact Dunlop then and try to get an answer. Someone will know, the question is how hard it will be to find them.

[Treeman]

Sorry you don't think much of my experience. As for setup, you have one tire that shows tremendous tire wear difference from one side to another. The camber was such that it clearly ran on that outside edge most of the time. You have another tire with excessive tire wear in the middle of the tire. That is typical of over inflation. I don't have a diagnosis for the sidewall separation but would not be surprised given the other 2 if it were under inflated. Any tire will fail if mistreated or driven beyond its design limit.

It is your sauce that looks weak to me and to discount my experience and call me and those I run with slow when you don't know me is even weaker. I am not Mario Andretti but I am not slow or ignorant.

[DeepBlueGXP]

When ever we ran autocross, we usually pump up the pressure because the standard pressure is for ride comfort, I usually ran 40 PSI for auto-x.  I agree with Treeman, the alignment is out.

[Critterman]

Having watched Treeman running the inner road course at Pocono International Raceway on those tires, I can tell you that he had no problem keeping up

[Gentleman Jack]

That's because I've worked on his car.

[Treeman]

That's because I've worked on his car.

Yes, I am going so fast because you worked on it that my red car looks pink!

[2kwk4u]

Wow!  Hadn't checked in on this thread in a few days.  Thanks for the feedback, everyone.  I respect all of your opinions.  I picked up my car yesterday, and judging by the wear bars on my Z1's I have the rest of this season to decide.  Will contact Dunlop directly one of these days and post up if they tell me our size is in the works...

Treeman, I'll (hopefully) see you at an event or two this season!

kwtoxman, I daily drive my car, and autox maybe 5 events per season with one mild track day if I can.  Thanks for the links.  I'll be sure to read through all of that info before I pull the trigger on PSS tires (if that's the way I go).

edit:  is it obvious I spent the last two years as a "diplomat?"  Time to update my profile.  So nice to be back in teh USA!   

[Sol Asylum]

Wow he's a diplomat but he still manages to make fun of Critter's spelling right at the end.  Good job!

[Gentleman Jack]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA