Topic: GM engineer questions backbone

[chuckdoc]

Two points, I not only drive like an old man, I am an old man and secondly, help, I am afraid of clowns!

[Ben L]

OK...  Global Mod hat on now.  Is everybody done blowing off steam?  

Now, take a deep cleansing breath, recognize that opinions are like a**holes -- everybody has them, and they all stink -- and lets get back to having fun and sharing information and viewpoints.

And I'd sure appreciate it if we could:

(1)  avoid calling each other names and questioning each other's manhood (not only Mr. P is guilty of that); and

(2)  tolerate a little good natured ballbusting.

We don't have to convince each other of anything.  A conversation is not a jury trial.  Nobody wins if lobbing grenades obliterates an exchange of information.

Global Mod hat off at this time.

BTW -- Snapon Bob, you are right about Dave's Cobra.  Its a Lonestar and has major bar/spring issues.  So it was a cheap shot to use the pic to illustrate frame flex and torque steer (which in the sole opinion of this miserable autocrosser, were issues with my GXP before my DDM subframe goodies).  We Factory Five drivers don't have those problems.

[snaponbob]

You can't get away with THAT. It doesn't matter if you have an FF, Superformance, or any other "Cobra". There are plenty of FF Cobras around here. "Look how pretty my blue car is. Look how impressive my hauler is. Listen to how loud and badass my fake 427 sounds. Watch me drive like poop !!!!" And then there are guys like you that try to make them work well. Big, BIG difference. BTW, how's the Daytona coming? [/quote]

[TecSolOnt]

Two points, I not only drive like an old man, I am an old man

  Heh I represent that !!

  Some more Rodney...

Last week I saw my psychiatrist. I told him, "Doc, I keep thinking I'm a dog." He told me to get off his couch.

I worked in a pet store and people kept asking how big I'd get.

My wife and I were happy for twenty years.  Then we met.

I'll tell ya, my wife and I, we don't think alike. She donates money to the homeless, and I donate money to the topless!

[snaponbob]

  Heh I represent that !!

  Some more Rodney...

Last week I saw my psychiatrist. I told him, "Doc, I keep thinking I'm a dog." He told me to get off his couch.

I worked in a pet store and people kept asking how big I'd get.

My wife and I were happy for twenty years.  Then we met.

I'll tell ya, my wife and I, we don't think alike. She donates money to the homeless, and I donate money to the topless!

Ba dump bump

[Ben L]

You can't get away with THAT. It doesn't matter if you have an FF, Superformance, or any other "Cobra". There are plenty of FF Cobras around here. "Look how pretty my blue car is. Look how impressive my hauler is. Listen to how loud and badass my fake 427 sounds. Watch me drive like poop !!!!" And then there are guys like you that try to make them work well. Big, BIG difference. BTW, how's the Daytona coming?

Now, now.  While we see 'em at car shows, do not run into many "show snakes" at the autocrosses around here.  Poopy blowhard drivers (other than me) tend to not come back the next time out of shame.  Respectfully, the results show we do more than try. Capital Area Cobra Club is packed with very talented drivers, who tend to dominate Cumberland across all classes, and are mounting this year a successful assault on the highly competitive WDC regional SCCA Solo XP class.  Not only do we have very good drivers, but several are excellent fabricators and engineers, with growing national reputations.  My old FFR Mark II roadster amazed more than one hardened "kit car" skeptic with its neutrality and balanced handling after we got done with it.  I benefited from our top guys' talents as my car was the test mule for rod end control arms, and CNC machined IRS knuckles with press fit spherical bearings, among other goodies, all mounted on DA Konis and corner weighted perfectly.  Gawd it turned and throttle steered well.  Same components on the coupe, plus a new custom speedway adjustable front sway bar. 

Speaking of which, body is back on.  Racing debut probably will be the July 26-27 Cumberland Airport autocrosses.  Here are the latest pics:

[GXPinKC]

Second Post  (GM Engineer)

   
In fact, regarding a blind ride, I will volunteer my personal time some weekend in August to run a blind ride for the DDM backbone, if someone wants to sponsor it.

We could run a couple of them, depending on the results of the first one, I would suggest a comparison of the thickest one to the stock panel.

If that is successful, we could run a second one on the thinnest backbone vs. the thickest one, or even vs. the middle one.

If it passes both rides, I would consider it very conclusive that there is a detectable effect. It would be fun for me, I always love interesting puzzles. LOL
__________________[/i]
[/quote]

Well, as MomsSol has stated in another thread, that "He (Steve) will be in Colorado at the National Meet.. perhaps a 'blind' study can be done with some Sol/Sky owners".  Carol and I will be having our 3/8ths Race Backbone and Pro Beam installed by Dave of DDMWorks on Thursday at ll:00.  Miss Red Eagle is virgin as she does not have the Performance Tune by GM or Wester's.  I offer "Miss Red Eagle" for a blind ride with the GM Engineer and I would say that the GM Engineer would probably want to test a Kappa with the GM or Wester's Tune as a benchmark! I will be on the edge of my seat wanting to find out what he says.  I know one thing, I can't wait to drive her after Dave does his magic at DDMWorks!

[lil goat]

I have never called anyone names except Mr. Toaster, I merely make vague generalizations, if people feel like I AM SPEAKING OF THEM HOW IS THAT MY FAULT.

When I was married my wife and I were over weight, the Dr. told us we needed more exercise, and we should have more sex.
I told him if we had any more sex we would never see each other.

I was so ugly when I was born the Dr. slapped my mother.

I miss Rodney, I was fortunate to meet him in the lobby of the Beverly Hill Hilton, he asked the front counter clerk if he had any messages as he was staying at the hotel, she said no, I'm sorry Mr. Dangerfield, he looked right at me and of course said,
"I don't get no respect"

[Ben L]

Goat --

"Vauge generalizations," my Aunt Nellie!  

My favorite Dangerfieldism is from that all-time classic, Caddyshack, where, right before tee off of the big match with Judge Smales, he stuffs several hundred dollar bills in the shirt pocket of the ref, and says "Keep it fair, keep it fair!"

A funny guy.  He left us too soon.

GXPinKC, I too await the results of a fair and balanced blind test with great interest. Although I confess that, even if Steve the Engineer feels no difference, I probably will not be removing my Race Backbone and using it as a coffee table.  I think you will not be disappointed by these mods.

I also agree that the test mule probably ought to be warmed over a bit -- a tuned LNF or blown N/A perhaps.   

[lil goat]

Caddyshack is my all time favorite movie, my favorite line.

"Whoa, I bet you were something before electricity"

"that's the ugliest hat I've ever seen, last time I saw a hat like that it came with a bowl of soup, oh but it looks good on you" to the Judge.

Did you know all of that stuff from Rodney in the movie was ad lib, just pure Rodney.

[snaponbob]

Ben, after seeing you pictures, I think, NO WAIT, I KNOW I hate you !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Very little in life makes me jealous, but THAT does. Rotten ba$tard.

BTW, if you see a six foot black guy driving a G8 GXP manual at your next event, tell Jeff I said HEY !! He and I go back over 28 years. 

[Aspenrose]

Many Kappa owners do in fact drive like old lady's especially the N/A owners, there has been a huge issue with the catalytic converters getting clogged due to lack of RPM's mostly, high RPM's help the cat clean itself, many, many people have posted questions on when to shift and asked why is it so noisy over 4000 rpm, is that a problem. If you guys have an issue with my posts I suggest you don't read them, just add me to your ignore list it's easy. Trust me on the other forum I had quite a long ignore list. While I respect many people's opinion on here I rarely agree with all of them, that is why we are here to discuss things, generally performance related. I try and base what I say on personal experience, facts, or information from people who I consider knowledgeable in the subject matter. One engineer, who do to the fact that he works for GM is limited in what he can say publicly will not change my opinion. I have the utmost respect for his stating an opinion at all, he is going out on a limb. I know I would not state negatives about who I work for, I like eating to much. He has a far more open mind than the engineers I know, he is involved with applied engineering not just theoretical, I also applaud him for that. He has volunteered to do a blind test, in that there will be  resolution for some, I don't need validation personally I know it works, and very well. It is just to simple a concept to me, but I am a car nut and a techie.

By the way I never said I had anything against clowns, they make me laugh. I do see a pattern in the posts of some that they are always negative, I have an issue with that. These people would complain about free gold because it is heavy.

Now don't be dumping on us NA owners. I had a cat fail, and frankly sir, you absolutely cannot blame it on babying the thing, nor driving like an old freaking lady. I spend so much time above 5500  rpms, I catch myself on the interstate at  speed....then realize I'm still in 3rd, and I'm glad my rev limiter is at 7200, so I'm not constantly banging against it.

And, while I've considered going SC at some point, frankly all the odd issues has soured my opinion of doing it, to my only car. I don't want a car that's throwing codes every other time it's driven. If I wanted that, I'd buy a F-O-R-D   But, you won't see me trashing people who are willing to deal with the  issues.

[Ben L]

Ben, after seeing you pictures, I think, NO WAIT, I KNOW I hate you !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Very little in life makes me jealous, but THAT does. Rotten ba$tard.

BTW, if you see a six foot black guy driving a G8 GXP manual at your next event, tell Jeff I said HEY !! He and I go back over 28 years. 

Then, Bob, I won't show you the engine bay or suspension photos, because I would like to stay friends.  Its more than a pretty blue car . . .

I will definitely look out for him.  G8s are cool, and I wouldbe sure to notice.

[lil goat]

Now don't be dumping on us NA owners. I had a cat fail, and frankly sir, you absolutely cannot blame it on babying the thing, nor driving like an old freaking lady. I spend so much time above 5500  rpms, I catch myself on the interstate at  speed....then realize I'm still in 3rd, and I'm glad my rev limiter is at 7200, so I'm not constantly banging against it.

And, while I've considered going SC at some point, frankly all the odd issues has soured my opinion of doing it, to my only car. I don't want a car that's throwing codes every other time it's driven. If I wanted that, I'd buy a F-O-R-D   But, you won't see me trashing people who are willing to deal with the  issues.

AR I was not picking on NA owners I had one, there has been an issue with all the NA cats, it is accelerated by low rpm driving. I pick on everyone uniformly.

[RichSol]

Fact: There are 2 ways to spell out Al
Aluminum....or the british (them folks talk funny)....Aluminium

Okay, enough comic relief.....back to the debate

They do talk funny, but it was a British guy who discovered this element and called it aluminum, then changed to aluminium, which his fellow scientists preferred because it conformed to others like potassium, sodium, etc. At least, according to this article  http://www.worldwidewords.org/articles/aluminium.htm

[Sol Asylum]

They do talk funny, but it was a British guy who discovered this element and called it aluminum, then changed to aluminium, which his fellow scientists preferred because it conformed to others like potassium, sodium, etc. At least, according to this article  http://www.worldwidewords.org/articles/aluminium.htm

If you think they pronounce aluminum funny you should hear them pronounce titanium, its as though they forget that there is an "a and n" in there.  BTW titanium wasn't really used much during the time period when the 747 was designed so the early ones were titanium free.  I'm not sure what might be used on the current production planes but you know if it ain't broke don't fix it.  Anyone that has ever worked with titanium knows its a different kind of beast and it ain't cheep.  The French like to use titanium screws on some of their aircraft, when you combine that with some dullard that thinks his Makita has to be set to stun and strips the head out it makes for a much more challenging day.  If you successfully remove the screw you then find out what a new screw cost.  When you take over price crappy French aircraft parts and make them out of titanium you find out that a single metric equivalent 10-32 screw (f'n French and their metric aircraft parts) cost a mer $70.  Oh and nobody stocks them because their $70 for a screw so you get to ground the aircraft while some frog sends you one from the other side of the pond after freight and customs fees you end up at over $100 for a screw.  Yeah I really like the French aircraft industry.

On another note

I sure wish the roads around my part of Central Hellinois were so smooth and banked perfectly that I never experienced any vertical or non parallel to the road forces when I drive my cars.  I guess I will have to blame those kind of "unnatural" forces on that former Governor of ours with the really bad hair piece, cheep ba$tard never did fix the roads wonder where that money went to.  Even those old lady drivers in the Buick end up with those "mysterious" .1% forces here.  God I hate living in this cesspool.

Hey Moby do you think this would be an appropriate place for that society poster?  You know that one I posted when you were saying how great the Mounties were.

[TerryT]

My two cents on the DDM mods.

Bought a new 09 GXP (Auto) in October of 08. Loved it then, love it now. From the beginning it was almost impossible to keep the rear end from breaking loose when I punched it at 20 - 40 mph. Entering freeway ramps, jacking with Porsches, irritating Lambos, when I got on it hard, the rear end broke loose. Ran consistently at about 19PSI top boost under hard acceleration. (DFW Texas area) Added the Backbone and the Probeam AND the GMPP tune. Now running consistently at about 21 PSI top boost and the vast majority of the problems with loss of traction have disappeared. I am driving a vehicle that has MORE power and BETTER handling and Traction. This is not placebo effect or some kind of mind trick. When I punch it hard it stays glued to the road, unlike before.

Cornering is also vastly improved. Curves that were difficult to take at 40 can now be handled at 50+. (Factory tires, although I hope to be changing that in the near future)

In short, I can't speak to the Scientific basis for the DDM products' worth. (Calculus was my downfall as a potential engineer) All I can say is that for me, they work and work well.

I recommend them to any Solstice owner that wants to improve the handling of his or her car.

[Treeman]

I have to fess up with being the person who helped to start this mess - although it did not go where I thought.  I am a newbie - to the forum and with a new Solstice - and was trying to learn more about the backbone.  I saw the thread about how wonderful it is and then saw the debate about whether it transfers stress to other points in the car that may not be designed to handle it.  Once I got the blessing to post on the other forum, where Flash's Owner is, I PM'd him asking about the transfer of stress to the other parts of the chassis.  Figured he should know about that for sure.  He blew that off pretty quick as a non-issue (yea!) but then questioned the whole thing and shared his experience blind testing the Z0K stuff.  I sent him links to threads on that forum and here (hoped to attract him over here) and suggested he publicly post.  He said he had gotten enough questions he would and did.

Look guys.  I was not questioning your manhood or your experiences.  I thought bringing Flash's Owner in to the discussion, we might learn something and have a fun chat.  How often do we get to chat with the designer of a car we drive??  I think the discussion over there may be changing his mind.  I was hoping to get him to join us too.

I don't autocross or go on the track and don't intend to.  I bought my car as a daily driver that I can have fun with on local curvy roads and get to the mountains when my kids soccer and baseball schedules let me.  I love it, drive fast (don't know what "hard" really means - my guess is something different to everyone), and have a good time.  I don't jack up my car by one corner and I don't drive a Cobra.  I don't even have the GMPP tune yet, but plan to get it (if I can).  I know about the weaknesses of convertibles but this was one designed with that in mind - the whole reason we have the tunnel if the first place.  It is similar to the Corvette design (interesting side thought - do they need to add backbones?). 

Some of the points of view here are from those that have really souped up your cars.  I love souped up cars but I'm not doing that with this one.  Some, like the post above, are more for folks like me (hope you agree TerryT).  I'd like to hear both experiences - I have learned alot. 

Unfortunately, most folks who have the backbone also have the probeam.  Kinda to Flash's Owner's point about do you need both - hard to tell.  But from this thread and the one on the other forum, I have decided that if I go that route, I will get both because the backbone seems to be a cheap, easy mod and at least does no harm and may help a lot.

I am curious though about the thoughts of doing the DDM route versus Z0K.  I get the picture that DDM is the cheaper, easier mod.  But Flash's Owner makes a big point about the attachment points on the Z0K rear crossmember piece versus the ProBeam.  What do folks think?

Sorry about the long post...I'll hush now and drive.   

[Acadian]

  It is similar to the Corvette design (interesting side thought - do they need to add backbones?). 

as an auto tech for a Chevrolet dealer, i see and work on c5 and c6 vettes chassis quite often. They  either come from the factory with a  stock thin ( like ours ) backbones and some with a roughly 1-8" to 3-16" thick aluminum back bone.

i can certify they both are stock from gm and that it depends of which options are on the car like base or z51 options,

 I am not sure if the convertible backbone is the same as the hardtop version, but the z51 and zo6 definitely came from the factory with the thicker aluminum backbone.

[Ben L]

The Pro Beam appears to be a credible substitute for the Z0K cross member.  I think someone on this thread indicated that the GM dudes tend to agree.  It ties into the rear shock mounts and bolts through the stock cross member.  Its simple to install.  Did it in a gravel driveway on ramps in under 1/2 an hour.  On the whole, to me, it was a cheaper quicker solution than a Z0K crossmember, because I do not care what SCCA Solo class I wound up in. It really and truly. hand to God, had a dramatic effect on reducing my car's offensive understeer (aka plowing, pushing, turning the front wheels in a hard turn and having the car just keep going straight).  The Backbone, as has been beat to death, appears to some of us to reduce chassis twisting under hard throttle (especially with a boost enhanced tuned car), and increase overall chassis stiffness. 

Together, bellisima!

[Ben L]

Look guys.  I was not questioning your manhood or your experiences.  I thought bringing Flash's Owner in to the discussion, we might learn something and have a fun chat.  How often do we get to chat with the designer of a car we drive??  I think the discussion over there may be changing his mind.  I was hoping to get him to join us too.

I don't autocross or go on the track and don't intend to.  I bought my car as a daily driver that I can have fun with on local curvy roads and get to the mountains when my kids soccer and baseball schedules let me.  I love it, drive fast (don't know what "hard" really means - my guess is something different to everyone), and have a good time.  I don't jack up my car by one corner and I don't drive a Cobra.  I don't even have the GMPP tune yet, but plan to get it (if I can).  I know about the weaknesses of convertibles but this was one designed with that in mind - the whole reason we have the tunnel if the first place.  It is similar to the Corvette design (interesting side thought - do they need to add backbones?). 

Hey, its all good.  You don't have to autocross or drive a Cobra, or heavily mod your Kappa to have fun or express yourself here.

But I'm going to share the opinions and experiences of someone who does all three of those things, ready or not.  Putting aside the whole "manhood" thing, I think the point is that a hopped up Kappa driven in an autocross/road race environment (where you are supposed be near 10/10ths to be fast) probably subjects the car to more extreme, at the limit, conditions than even "hard" street driving, so its sort of like a good test lab for chassis and suspension.  Plus, any motorsports racer is a competitive, insecure, a-hole by definition.  So if I come off as a little opinionated about what I observe and feel from my mods, please forgive me.

PS -- You really should try autocrossing and driving a Cobra.  I am pretty sure you would have to be dead not to have a blast doing both.

[Derf]

My  and it is probably worth less than that 
I installed the backbone (street version) in December. Was going to install the pro beam as well but had a fouling problem between it and the exhaust, they hit, in the aircraft industry we call that fouling. Seems there was a batch of factory exhausts made kinda not to spec, so I ordered the DDM exhaust in SS and drove with just the backbone for a month or so. Before in entering and exiting a turn I had to keep correcting. After, that seemed to be lessened. After installing the pro beam I immediately noticed there is no problems in the turns, it goes where I point it. At the mod meet we had in Muenster TX, one attendee was wondering what all the fuss was about. Someone threw him the keys to his car and said go drive it, when he came back he was absolutely speechless, I have a great photo of him holding the back bone he purchased that day. Maybe from an engineering standpoint it does not mean much, but I am not going to remove mine from my car, The speed and power I have is enough for most of my driving, I am more interested in improving the handling. And I think the backbone helps, and with the pro beam  it is noticeably different, at least it is to me  and that is my 

[PubliusE]

My two cents on the DDM mods.

Bought a new 09 GXP (Auto) in October of 08. Loved it then, love it now. From the beginning it was almost impossible to keep the rear end from breaking loose when I punched it at 20 - 40 mph.

My biggest improvement in this area came when I installed my Goodyear Eagle F1 GS-D3 tires. These tires hold the pavement.  I still plan to install the Probeam once I get a few other things done to the car.   

[snaponbob]

Hell, almost ANY tires would be better than the OEM things that come on Kappas.

[Ben L]

+1   Take them off and get rid of them immediately.  Your car will love you for it.