Topic: HPFP or in tank pump... whats the real limiting fuel factor?

[joshmass]

Josh....it just makes me salivate everytime I look at my pathetic AEM meth kit............and look at your set-up.....lol

Is your Aquamist system Ethanol compatible?

Yes. It is. Ethanol. Methanol.

[rlhammon]

EDM ran into some issues cutting the pump. Apparently there is some kind of teflon/ rubber seal in the pump it could not cut through.

I discussed some ideas with the doctor this weekend, and have some ideas on how to make it bigger and better. However please bear with me. Its not exactly a quick engineering feat to make one of these. It appears the tolerances are pretty crazy.

Goodluck getting a company to do it for profit. I see nothing to be gained as far as profit on these. I am doing it only because I want one and others have helped me along the way to try to figure it out.

If someone else has another HPFP that they can bore the fittings on, that would be a start as well. Once I get some cut away pics I will try to explain how it was explained to me.

I've already stated before I have a shop *that currently does this sort of work* who is interested in getting their hands on a HPFP to properly take a look inside.  You decided to take it to the shop you did... I'm still looking for a HPFP to put it into the hands of guys who do this day in day out as a job (that is, opening up HPFP and increasing their output).

[rlhammon]

With people solving the fuel delivery issue with a 5th injector, why is the pump still being looked at?

I'm personally looking at the pump as it mimics the OEM design.  I don't like the thought of not getting good mixing through a 5th injector (not saying it doesn't mix well, but saying I don't know how well it does mix).  If I push the fuel through the HP fuel rail, I know what I get.

We all need to remember there are several different end goals from people in this thread:

Fuel: 1) Gasoline, 2) E85, 3) E85/gas blends
Path to take: 1) Any, 2) Limited by SCCA racing rules

I belong to the Fuel #2 or #3, and Path #2.  Others have different limitations / wants.  So... you'll see people respond with their fuel/path intended, but not always will it be yours, so their answers / comments seem "odd" at times.

I'm aware of a multitude of ways to increase the fuel to the engine:

1) 5th injector
2) Modified fuel lobe on the cam
3) Increased volume output of a HPFP

#1 is available today, and as this thread talks about in various methods.
#2 is available today, but not legal per my SCCA rules I'm limited to for racing
#3 is what I want to complete... because this solution solves *everyones* fuel/path choices

Remember when people talk hp limitation we need to understand their fuel of choice as well.  Running E85 I can not keep the engine supplied.  Running a blend (50/50 E85/Gasoline) I've had zero issues.  I'm looking to up my ratio to understand where I see issues, and if I see performance gains.  I do know there is a difference between E85 and a 50/50 blend E85/Gasoline... I have dyno plots to show that, what I don't have is the various points between those two end points, and I don't know how linear (or non-linear) those changes are between the two data points.

Last I heard from BOSCH (two months ago) there isn't a HPFP which flows more fuel than what is in our LNF setup.  The engineering prints I've been provided by BOSCH show the same internal volume on the pumps, and change out the plunger / spring assembly for various model numbers.  Each is capable of providing the same max volume per stroke.

With that said... there are only two ways to get more fuel (per RPM) than stock:

1) Make the HPFP volume larger (open the pump, bore it out, and put it back together)
2) Cycle the pump more than 3 times per RPM

Option #1 is SCCA legal (yeah for me and SnapOnBob).  Option #2 is not SCCA legal (and from my discussions at Lincoln last month doesn't appear it will become legal either).

There's my attempt at why some people want different solutions, and a summary of the possibilities (as I currently understand them).  Increasing the pump output per stroke is the solution which is possible (done today on turbo DI VW setups via two speed shops in the U.S.A.), and SCCA legal.  It just so happens to enable either fuel type as well.  That's why I see it as the "ultimate" end goal.

[miller11386]

rlhammon:

If Tazz is OK with it, I will be happy to send the pump your way. Please have Tazz PM me the address you wish to send it to, and I will be happy to ship it over to wherever you need in MI.

Just remember this is exactly what the pump looks like (I do have all the pcs that were cut away):

[miller11386]

With that said... there are only two ways to get more fuel (per RPM) than stock:

1) Make the HPFP volume larger (open the pump, bore it out, and put it back together)
2) Cycle the pump more than 3 times per RPM

That being said, If you think this thing is able to be "taken apart" you need to look again at how it is constructed (see photos). Everything is micro-welded or brazed together. It will not be coming apart in any fashion and going back together IMO. You may be able to get more flow out of a pump by just porting the two fittings on the pump and going that route, but that is the ONLY hope to get a "better" HPFP.... and I really don't think that is going to amount to a lot more volume.

Again check with Tazz, and I will ship the pump out whenever you would like. It sitting at my desk at work.

[tazz]

That's fine with me.

[miller11386]

Please PM/post an address you wish it to be mailed to and I will get it going on its way next week, mr hammon

[miller11386]

saw this on YT... fast forward to 4:12 ..... look familiar?

How It's Made High Performance Engines

[rlhammon]

rlhammon:

If Tazz is OK with it, I will be happy to send the pump your way. Please have Tazz PM me the address you wish to send it to, and I will be happy to ship it over to wherever you need in MI.

Just remember this is exactly what the pump looks like (I do have all the pcs that were cut away):

I've sent a message off to the shop I've been in discussions with and sent them the pictures.  If they say that can still use this, then I'll give you the address.  I have no issues with sharing what's going on, but at this point I don't want to swamp the shop with questions / ideas until they have a chance to tear into one of these.

Thanks for the offer to send, it is *much* appreciated.

[rlhammon]

That being said, If you think this thing is able to be "taken apart" you need to look again at how it is constructed (see photos). Everything is micro-welded or brazed together. It will not be coming apart in any fashion and going back together IMO. You may be able to get more flow out of a pump by just porting the two fittings on the pump and going that route, but that is the ONLY hope to get a "better" HPFP.... and I really don't think that is going to amount to a lot more volume.

Again check with Tazz, and I will ship the pump out whenever you would like. It sitting at my desk at work.

Believe me, I understand exactly how these things are put together.  I've asked over and over again with the shops to make sure they understand, and they state ours is no different in construction / assembly than what they already deal with on the VW's HPFP's.  I'm not sure what they do to get them apart... but they do.

This is the first company I contacted about doing such a conversion, but they are not interested in supporting our platform.  They did; however, connect me to another company who is interested in our platform, mainly due to the Cobalt's which are out there from a market size standpoint.  Feel free to read up on what is done, and see the picture of the HPFP they have... it's very similar in design.  This company was actually familiar with the BOSCH unit on our engine, and had investigated the work previously... but they wanted a larger potential market before doing the investigation and passed on expanding (you'll see they concentrate on German cars).

http://www.goapr.com/products/fsi_fuel_pump.html

I'd appreciate it if others would respect their decision to not support our platform.  Their engineers and sales guys have been wonderful to talk with over the past several months, answering *tons* of questions from me, and directing me to a place that not only can but is at least willing to investigate this for us.

[miller11386]

hey sounds great! I am all for giving anyone a shot to make the better hpfp Hopefully they can work their magic on it and get something that works

[40rtyp]

Ive dealt with APR before when I was doing Bolt-on's and Injectors for a tune I once got from them. The only thing that concerns me is the fact that they are VW guys which translates to "We are going to charge a ridiculous amount of money for this pump". Have you looked at the pricing for their tunes? IF, they make one good on them but watch out for what they'll ask for it.

[rlhammon]

Ive dealt with APR before when I was doing Bolt-on's and Injectors for a tune I once got from them. The only thing that concerns me is the fact that they are VW guys which translates to "We are going to charge a ridiculous amount of money for this pump". Have you looked at the pricing for their tunes? IF, they make one good on them but watch out for what they'll ask for it.

As I said in my post APR is *not* interested in this... I added a link for those to see what is it that I'm looking to get done.  I agree they are pricey, and they know that as well... but their customers pay for their products, and in the end that's all that matters.

Please... anyone reading this thread stop contacting APR about this (not saying 40rtyp did, but I know others have), this is not the shop interested in doing the pump for our platform.

[40rtyp]

As I said in my post APR is *not* interested in this... I added a link for those to see what is it that I'm looking to get done.  I agree they are pricey, and they know that as well... but their customers pay for their products, and in the end that's all that matters.

Please... anyone reading this thread stop contacting APR about this (not saying 40rtyp did, but I know others have), this is not the shop interested in doing the pump for our platform.

 Yea, did you get in contact then with a diesel shop or something? Those are the guys you really want to talk to cause I hear all the time how they port their stock HPFP all the time. I have found a few shops around my area. Just wished that I had a spare one they could tinker with.

[rlhammon]

Yea, did you get in contact then with a diesel shop or something? Those are the guys you really want to talk to cause I hear all the time how they port their stock HPFP all the time. I have found a few shops around my area. Just wished that I had a spare one they could tinker with.

I have not looked into Diesel shops, but it's a possibility I guess.  I don't know enough about diesel units to know if they are similar enough or not.  What I've done is through BOSCH determine what's possible with our current pump, then what companies make these sorts of pumps (BOSCH, Hitachi, and others), then what types of cars those pumps are used in, then what sort of performance upgrades are those cars doing, and then... who are the suppliers for those upgrades.  That, and some key leads / contacts led me down my current path.

Miller is shipping out the unit in the pictures today to the shop I've been talking with.  They will take a look to determine if it's worth while to proceed from here.  If it is, then I need to supply them with a few other pumps to tear apart and develop their plan of attack.  I'll certainly keep folks updated as to what is happening as it goes along.

[40rtyp]

Keep me posted.

[miller11386]

The package was sent today! Estimated delivery date is thursday...  Tazz and Rlhammond, you have a PM with the ups tracking # coming your way.

Thanks again to Tazz for letting me take a shot at it. Even though I don't have any uber useful data from it, I really found the design pretty cool and enjoyed the experience

[miller11386]

The pump was delivered to Rlhammond's vendor on Thursday at noon.. I looked up the confirmation today.

Please keep us posted on their progress!

[rlhammon]

Just an update (I've received a few PM's, sorry I haven't responded to them):

Shop has been busy, but they met this past Saturday to go over the pump and set a plan of attack.  They will be cutting it open shortly and letting me know their plan from there.

Wish I had more.. but that's what I've got currently.