Topic: E47 dyno (50/50 mix: 93 Octane / E85)

[rlhammon]

So as I've talked about I headed over to the ZZ Performance LNF meet yesterday... it wasn't well attended, but I was told that there was a National Cobalt meet taking place at the same time in Nashville.  While there weren't many Cobalt's there, there was only one Kappa (mine)... but this allowed me a lot of time to talk with Matt and Tim about our platform, and some tuning.

I started running a 50/50 mix of gas/E85 this year due to fueling issues I saw when autocrossing on full E85.  This is also the first time the car has ever been dyno'd, as frankly I don't care what the numbers are... I want it to drive the way I want it.  I've only had one event under my belt with this tune, and I noticed some issues on WOT after coming out of some sort of turn.  I can see why.. and I'm going to address this next.  There most likely will not be a follow up dyno, but I couldn't pass up the deal yesterday ($40 for two pulls... we ended up doing three because one had an issue datalogging on the laptop).

Results are attached, and the scale goes like this:

Eng Power scale = Eng Torque scale = 10x Boost

So... the 300 hp line = 300 torque = 30 psi

On the right you have the A/F ratio.  Yes... I'm not only Rich by name... but apparently by fueling as well.  This is also getting fixed.

Summary of the three runs was almost identical (less than 2 hp / tq changes run to run to run), so averaged out to 310 hp / 380 tq, running an average of 23-24 psi.



**EDIT** For reference purposes:

Stock engine, stock turbo, Trifecta E47 tune

[miller11386]

what did you think ab their shop? and how knowledgeable were they?

[Ames Performance Tuning]

I wonder if they can "tune out" your dips in the graph especially at 4800.

[rlhammon]

what did you think ab their shop? and how knowledgeable were they?

Shop is smallish, but then again most of these sorts of places are (haven't been to DDM, but ZZ Performace's shop is larger than Performance Autowerks if you have a reference).  Lots of guys working... wow, they do some huge amount of business.

I wasn't the slightest bit concerned about their knowledge base.  I went mainly to sit with Matt and learn how to tune via HP Tuners.  I use Trifecta, but I wanted to learn more about what's possible to do (the tables in HP Tuners) and what happens and why you should / shouldn't do something.  Matt was great, and was Tim.

When we put the car on the dyno I datalogged it for Vince.  You can't see the data with Vince's setup, you have to send it to him and have him work the tune.  The 2nd and 3rd runs Matt logged via HPTuners and we discussed what's going on.  We can certainly take out the boost bump and level that out, Matt explained to me how to do that.  I just have to get Vince to do it, which shouldn't be a problem... Matt explained that Vince can do things that HP Tuners can not. 

[miller11386]

glad to hear you enjoyed it!

[Brazen17]

You are still on stock turbo correct?

[rlhammon]

You are still on stock turbo correct?

Yes... I'll go back and edit the original post.

[Kelu]

Do you know how much does a stock LNF on their dyno?

I know there were others Kappa there but a stock number on their dyno witll be a nice reference.

Thanks for sharing

[elff]

I have seen some people post up about compression issues due to a seal leaking after running E85?

What seals are those and how long do you have before that becomes a part you should replace?

[rlhammon]

I have seen some people post up about compression issues due to a seal leaking after running E85?

What seals are those and how long do you have before that becomes a part you should replace?

I know nothing about these... and have no answer.  I ran E85 all last year (April - Nov. 2011) and now on a 50/50 mix just about every other tank.  Between there I'm on Shell 93 octane.  That's because it's a pain for me to do a mix, as the station that has E85 doesn't have good 93 octane gas... so before I go race, I add back in what I need in E85 to mix it out, and then fill up a 5 gallon tank to take with me for racing too.

[elff]

I've seen some mention of seals in some troubleshooting threads so I was curious.

Im doing some searching to see if I can find an answer to my question.  I don't think it's a big issues as our cars are setup pretty well for it.

[Brazen17]

I wished Nevada had 93 octane...

How is the driveability on the tune you are currently running?

[POS VETT]

If the engine and the turbo were stock and the tune was GMPP, would there be any advantage power-wise to run E47 ?

[elff]

You would need to modify the GMPP tune to take advantage of E47.

[elff]

Found my answer
**************
If your going to be running E47 or E85 it is suggested that you get the Viton(Color Black) Seals that the "LHU" for example use since they come E85 designed from the factory. The Viton pretty much repels Ethanol from eating at the otherwise (Color White) seals. The seals needing replace are the Fuel Injector Seals and the Valve stem seals.
**************
So thats not bad at all

[miller11386]

viton seals are cheap as well. Its just a matter of getting in and replacing them.

[snaponbob]

Any specific locations for the seals?

[Critterman]

Fuel injectors and valve stems.

[elff]

The seals needing replace are the Fuel Injector Seals and the Valve stem seals.

[rlhammon]

If the engine and the turbo were stock and the tune was GMPP, would there be any advantage power-wise to run E47 ?

The way you worded this, there are two possible questions:

1) Can you run E47 on the GMPP tune and pick up power?

No... you need to flow more fuel when running E47, and the GMPP tune doesn't do this

2) Is there more power on the E47 tune vs. the GMPP tune?

Yes... on the GMPP tune I don't break the stock tires loose like I do on the E47 tune.  I haven't dyno'd the GMPP tune, but there is considerable more power on the E47 tune.

[elff]

That's what I said in less words


You can also advance the timing due to Ethanol's reduction of Knock.

[tazz]

Yup you can run around twice as much timing on the top end with E47 and about 17% more fuel.

[Gentleman Jack]

Why is there still a need for premium gas when missing with Ethanol?  Is see folks are using 93 for the mix.  Wouldn't the cheaper 87 and a slightly different mix of Ethanol still give you E47?  Seems to me if you can mix 50/50, you should be able to mix 60/40 as well.

[miller11386]

it would affect the octane level GJ, which is the whole reason to run E85.

This is also why E85 can vary from station to station. Along with winter blending, just like the pump gas

[tazz]

it would affect the octane level GJ, which is the whole reason to run E85.

This is also why E85 can vary from station to station. Along with winter blending, just like the pump gas

Yeah you need to be careful on that.
The station I used to go to closed-up and I had suspected that there 91 octane had a 10% E mix and I would do a 1:1 mix of E85.  Well I go to another station but same branding and I have to do 55% E85 to 45%91 just so I can run the same Timing as before.
The tune still compensated but I was noticing that the ECM was starting to pull timing where it never had an issue before.