Topic: LIPSTICK'S 800hp first LNF compound turbo/engine build!

[Yogi]

Antonio -

Injecting water into a compressor inlet is not a good idea.  The water will tear up the compressor blades.  (I used to work on Industrial Gas Turbines)

Aircraft jet engines have titanium strips soldered onto the leading edges of compressor blades so that rain will not damage them.  Your compressor wheel is prolly aluminum?

Yogi

[SKY888]

Antonio -

Injecting water into a compressor inlet is not a good idea.  The water will tear up the compressor blades.  (I used to work on Industrial Gas Turbines)

Aircraft jet engines have titanium strips soldered onto the leading edges of compressor blades so that rain will not damage them.  Your compressor wheel is prolly aluminum?

Yogi

yogi...thank you for the heads up!   I appreciate your concerns.
and I know because of your background, you guys probably encountered a lot of issues.


in turbo applications, I've only seen one compressor that was damaged among my research before.  I believe its a rotary turbo who encountered it.  But besides him, a lot of tuners have been doing pre-turbo spray.

I believe big water droplets can cause the destruction of compressor blades.  That's why the jet engines get damaged due to large rain droplets
but spraying using moisture in vapor form....will not be as harmful.

what are your thoughts?

[Yogi]

yogi...thank you for the heads up!   I appreciate your concerns.
and I know because of your background, you guys probably encountered a lot of issues.


in turbo applications, I've only seen one compressor that was damaged among my research before.  I believe its a rotary turbo who encountered it.  But besides him, a lot of tuners have been doing pre-turbo spray.

I believe big water droplets can cause the destruction of compressor blades.  That's why the jet engines get damaged due to large rain droplets
but spraying using moisture in vapor form....will not be as harmful.

what are your thoughts?

If it were mine, and I had put as much work and money into it, I would not do it.  The only way that it MAY work is if the air is hot enough to vaporize the water before entering the compressor intake.  If you have ANY droplets, large or small, they will damage your compressor blades for sure.

Yogi

[SKY888]

thanks for the input Yogi.   

I think the biggest difference between the aircraft jet engines...getting hit by large rain droplets......................and my compound set-up is temperature.


up there in the sky.....before the water hits the aircraft jet engines.......the water's temp...is not as hot compared to temp in between the turbo compressors?


with my compound set-up, without measuring the temps yet (before it hits the intercooler), I'm assuming air temp out of big turbo is around 350 degrees and the small turbo bumps it up around 400 degrees.  Injecting around 1500cc of straight water to take that 100 degrees out of the temp between compressors


and like what I mentioned in my previous statement......we are spraying moisture in vapor form during ...........only on high boost

[Yogi]

thanks for the input Yogi. 

You're quite welcome, Antonio.

I think the biggest difference between the aircraft jet engines...getting hit by large rain droplets......................and my compound set-up is temperature.

Temperature and PRESSURE!  at higher pressures, you need higher temperatures to vaporize the water.  Think about the pressure cap on the radiator and how it raises the boiling point of the coolant in the engine.

up there in the sky.....before the water hits the aircraft jet engines.......the water's temp...is not as hot compared to temp in between the turbo compressors?

Yes, and the atmospheric pressure is lower too. 

with my compound set-up, without measuring the temps yet (before it hits the intercooler), I'm assuming air temp out of big turbo is around 350 degrees and the small turbo bumps it up around 400 degrees.  Injecting around 1500cc of straight water to take that 100 degrees out of the temp between compressors


and like what I mentioned in my previous statement......we are spraying moisture in vapor form during ...........only on high boost

How can you be sure that you are spraying "only vapor"?

Yogi

[SKY888]

Oh it's spraying water.

But due to high boost pressure & 300-400 degree temperature between turbos, the water gets vaporized before hitting the compressor blade?

Thoughts?

[Yogi]

Oh it's spraying water.

But due to high boost pressure & 300-400 degree temperature between turbos, the water gets vaporized before hitting the compressor blade?

Thoughts?

 

The only way to know for sure is to take the temperature and pressure and look it up in a steam table.  I wish that I hadn't thrown out my college textbooks when I moved after divorce.

Yogi

[SKY888]

Damn Yogi, why make me double guess my plans! Lol!

Thanks for all the stuff I learned today.

I'll discuss with BTF

[Yogi]

Again, you're welcome, Antonio!

Have a look at these diagrams:
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/boiling-point-water-d_926.html

As long as you STAY above the boiling point line, you should be OK.

Yogi

[elff]

i might not....who knows?

as long as the engine is strong.....and I can have it to drive it!   its been a million of years!

I totally understand.  I am simply enjoying driving mine right now.  Only have a couple more weeks until that's not a good idea to drive these cars in our area.   

[Jim]

I actually had pretty good luck and results spraying before the turbo on one of my previous setups. It ran several years with no issues.

[SKY888]

Again, you're welcome, Antonio!

Have a look at these diagrams:
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/boiling-point-water-d_926.html

As long as you STAY above the boiling point line, you should be OK.

Yogi

Thanks, this will be useful!

[SKY888]

I actually had pretty good luck and results spraying before the turbo on one of my previous setups. It ran several years with no issues.

Jim, a couple of questions:

1.) did u spray just water? Or 50-50?

2.) did u spray in an angle? Or did u spray straight towards center of compressor?

[Jim]

I sprayed water at a 90 degree angle.

it's not uncommon to see carbureted setups that draw fuel through the compressor. I had a draw through setup on an aircooled VW engine that ran like a scalded ape before switching to fuel injection.

[SKY888]

Oh nice Jim!
U still have that car?


The guy that I mentioned on my first post, Kevin Jewer, he inspired me to do compounds. He had an 8 sec , RwD DSM compound turbo car. He currently sprays meth inter-stage.

4 nozzles !

[Jim]

 I got rid of the car for one with more creature comforts like the Sky has. Heat, AC, seatbelts and airbags....

[Yogi]

Thanks, this will be useful!

One last thing that I forgot to mention:  The pressures in the charts and tables that I linked to above are ABSOLUTE pressures, NOT "GAUGE" pressures.  To convert from gauge pressure to absolute, add +14.7 PSI or +one BAR.

Yogi

[SKY888]

One last thing that I forgot to mention:  The pressures in the charts and tables that I linked to above are ABSOLUTE pressures, NOT "GAUGE" pressures.  To convert from gauge pressure to absolute, add +14.7 PSI or +one BAR.

Yogi

Yes!   

[SKY888]

today, started using the secondary injectors spraying VP M1 methanol


M1 methanol + water + careful programming of transition = DELTA P!

GT42 is the light blue line/green for turbine.
Red is intake manifold pressure, yellow is turbine pressure 1

Note the green line in the top graph, that is MAF lbs/min. It has been flattened in the CAL to reflect the M1 systems addition to the total fuel load. The white line at the bottom Graph however is raw MAF frequency and truly should reflect mass flow changes... Although it slowly increases with RPM it seems to plateau more or less once 32 psi is achieved and the transition occurs of turbos.
If you run it setup for absolute mode on the primary gate (PR High in green graph #4) and keep that a steady 2-1 PR, system response is faster, but Delta P overall is negative by a half Bar or so. The twist comes with the MAF freq more or less is the same in either mode, having a positive delta or negative at the cyl head.

[SKY888]

Hi yogi, if u look at the big turbo's compressor outlet, the water nozzle is installed (L-bend).

Water will be sprayed there and will travel at least 3 feet of tubing with 3-4 bends to reach the compressor inlet of the small turbo.

So the water nozzle is not directly in front of the compressor blades of the small turbo unlike some pre-turbo sprays that you usually see (directly in front & very close to the compressor blades).

So I'm thinking that by the time the water mist, due to temperature/pressure/distance/speed/bends/etc, there will be no big water droplets hitting the compressor blades, since it will be all changed into water vapor by then.

[SKY888]

 

Btw the pure water on the LP stage seems to be working well so far. Its tied to LP side pressure and that is reflected in the data stream. Havent had any misfire issues thus far

[Yogi]

Hi yogi, if u look at the big turbo's compressor outlet, the water nozzle is installed (L-bend).

Water will be sprayed there and will travel at least 3 feet of tubing with 3-4 bends to reach the compressor inlet of the small turbo.

So the water nozzle is not directly in front of the compressor blades of the small turbo unlike some pre-turbo sprays that you usually see (directly in front & very close to the compressor blades).

So I'm thinking that by the time the water mist, due to temperature/pressure/distance/speed/bends/etc, there will be no big water droplets hitting the compressor blades, since it will be all changed into water vapor by then.

Yes.  The distance and the bends should help.  As long as you STAY above the lines in those graphs that I quoted, you should be OK.  The only other potential problem that I can see is if there is a pressure surge that condenses the water.  However, any increase in pressure sufficient to condense the water or prevent it from vaporizing would likely only be a "spike" of very short duration, I would hope.

Yogi

[Yogi]

Btw the pure water on the LP stage seems to be working well so far. Its tied to LP side pressure and that is reflected in the data stream. Havent had any misfire issues thus far

Glad to hear!

Yogi

[SKY888]

Initial dyno run at mustang dyno

440whp at 33psi

It is as far as it can go today without changing the LP turbo gate spring.

[SKY888]

baby steps........since a lot of stuff going on with the interactions of the two turbos.

Need to be careful


at 35ish psi




still has a lot of bugs to fix............and will at least boost 40-45psi.